RAF Two tone green Thunderbolts in Burma?

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings,

I was going through an overpriced and very thin book called "P-47 Thunderbolt", a warbirds/footfax book, and noticed a photo of a T-bolt Mk I supposedly in a two tone green scheme. The picture is black and white and the caption read" the two tone olive drab jungle paint was standard in late 1944" More than likely the scheme dark green and brown typical of CBI RAF aircraft but I am not sure. Either the author was just guessing from the photo or he knows something others, or at least myself do not know. I will put it to my highly respected modeling experts to help me with this minor dilemma. Any ideas on this?

Cheers

[Andrew Jones]

Greetings,

I was going through an overpriced and very thin book called "P-47 Thunderbolt", a warbirds/footfax book, and noticed a photo of a T-bolt Mk I supposedly in a two tone green scheme. The picture is black and white and the caption read" the two tone olive drab jungle paint was standard in late 1944" More than likely the scheme dark green and brown typical of CBI RAF aircraft but I am not sure. Either the author was just guessing from the photo or he knows something others, or at least myself do not know. I will put it to my highly respected modeling experts to help me with this minor dilemma. Any ideas on this?

Cheers

Never heard of two tone green , Dark Green /Dark Earth would have been the norm.

[Seahawk]

Like Andrew, I'm inclined to be dismissive. Who's the author?

[Spitfires Forever]

Like Andrew, I'm inclined to be dismissive. Who's the author?

William N. Hess was the author. I don't know what his credential are but the book is part of the Arms and Armour Press publications.

[spitfire]

According to Geoff Thomas in "RAF Thunderbolts" the RAF P-47 uppers were repainted in RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth before being issued to Squadrons so it is highly unlikely that a green/green scheme slipped through the system.

Cheers

Dennis

[theplasticsurgeon]

Like Andrew, I'm inclined to be dismissive. Who's the author?

I have that book - but can't find it right now.

If I find it by next week, I'll bring it to the club meeting.

[Test Graham]

Hess is an American author with several works to his credit, but not ones with particular reference to RAF aircraft camouflage. Just plain wrong, I'm sure.

[Spitfires Forever]

Hess is an American author with several works to his credit, but not ones with particular reference to RAF aircraft camouflage. Just plain wrong, I'm sure.

I am pretty sure he got his information wrong, sometimes these authors just "mail it in" and make an educated, or not so educated guess. I have looked at hundreds of books and have found many mistakes on photo captions, even in "scholarly" works. I just want things clear before I begin my own T-bolt in SEAC colors. By the way, when did they switch from the grey and green scheme to the green and brown?

[spitfire]

I am pretty sure he got his information wrong, sometimes these authors just "mail it in" and make an educated, or not so educated guess. I have looked at hundreds of books and have found many mistakes on photo captions, even in "scholarly" works. I just want things clear before I begin my own T-bolt in SEAC colors. By the way, when did they switch from the grey and green scheme to the green and brown?

Geoff Thomas states that the P-47's were refinished to comply with AFO (India) No 70 of 4 April 1944, which consolidated previous orders about camouflage and required all fighter aircraft to be camouflaged in the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green, and Dark Earth with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces and Sky code letters. However he does say that in a few cases the undersides were left Light Gray (US paint).

Cheers

Dennis

[Troy Smith]

HI Randy

here's a colour pic for you, from Etienne's photostream. note plane in background.

a 30 Sqdn. Thunderbolt starting up at Jumchar, India on 15 Jan. 1945.

cheers

T

[Spitfires Forever]

HI Randy

here's a colour pic for you, from Etienne's photostream. note plane in background.

cheers

T

Hello Troy, good to have your input as usual. I can see why the author possibly thought the aircraft were two tone green, regardless I feel if someone is going to publish something they might more closely verify the information before letting it go to press, but then again, why can't the model company's make a kit accurate from the beginning? anyway, what is the situation with the green and grey versus green and brown? Supposedly both schemes were used in the SEAC theatre.

Cheers

[tonyot]

As far as I can gather camouflaged Thunderbolts for the RAF left the factory in Grey and Green upper surface camouflage (US Sea Grey and Olive Drab with US Light Grey undersides) with Sky fighter bands and those which reached the OTU in Egypt retained this scheme, complete with C1 Type roundels on the fuselage, C Type markings on the fin and under the wings and B Type above the wing, although the latter were often converted into C Types with the addition of a white ring during 1945!

Those which reached India in this scheme were refinished with RAF Dark Earth covering the Ocean Grey/ US Sea Grey areas of camo on the upper/ side surfaces although some were totally refinished in RAF Dark Earth and RAF Dark Green with RAF Medium Sea Grey undersides. Some Mk.I`s (known nowadays as `Razorbacks) went into service with large Blue and White roundels and without the addition of the White bands to the nose, tail and wings which later became standard on most camouflaged RAF Thunderbolt Mk.I`s and Mk.II`s operating over India and Burma. Most of the RAF Thunderbolts had the small two toned blue SEAC roundels applied and some front line units had the white stripes on the upper surfaces over painted to improve the camouflage whilst on the ground.

When natural metal Thunderbolt Mk.II`s began to arrive in India these were not camouflaged but Dark Blue bands were applied to the nose, wings and tail and the original C1/C Type markings were removed and replaced by the small two toned blue SEAC roundels. The natural metal Mk.II`s used by the OTU in Egypt retained the national insignia in which they were delivered and most aircraft, camo or silver had a playing card containing a skull painted on the nose with a number code next to the fuselage roundel.

As soon as I saw `TWO TONED GREEN RAF THUNDERBOLT' I just knew it would turn out to be an American author!

Hope this helps

Tony O

edited to correct a few spelling/typing mistakes!

Edited February 8, 2012 by tonyot

[Troy Smith]

Hello Troy, good to have your input as usual. I can see why the author possibly thought the aircraft were two tone green, regardless I feel if someone is going to publish something they might more closely verify the information before letting it go to press, but then again, why can't the model company's make a kit accurate from the beginning? anyway, what is the situation with the green and grey versus green and brown? Supposedly both schemes were used in the SEAC theatre.

Cheers

HI Randy

you might want to edit the quoted picture out...

the RAF tropical scheme was Dark green/dark earth uppers with medium sea grey undersides, from UK factories in day fighter scheme, [dg/og/msg]and the dark earth painted over the Ocean grey in theatre or at a MU ...hopefully someone with more knowledge will know. Only very late on were they left in OG, like some Spitfire XIVs or s that just profiles getting it wrong again?

But...when the USAAF dropped camoflage other user still wanted camo, and P-47's were factory painted, the reason I mention this given the bright sunlight the undersides of these P-47's looks very dark, like neutral grey, and the green has that viridian hue seen in US medium green... so are these in US equivalent colors? or even Medium green/olive drab uppers? paging Nick Millman....

there are color pics of bostons in this finish but my daughter wants me.....post later

cheers

T

[Spitfires Forever]

Hi Tony,

Yes, the author seemed to have taken a wild guess at the color scheme. I remember as a young lad I would be looking at pictures in the Ballentine histories of WWII and finding a quite a few inaccuracies, such as misidentifying Hellcats as Wildcats ( this was understandably common in many history books) and fun camera footage featuring German aircraft. But compared to what they do in movies it is almost criminal ie. Pearl Harbor which was an atrocity! At least they tried to get it right with Red Tails. Oh well, no accounting foe intellectual laziness I guess, but it is obvious that this extends to authors and /or publishers on both sides of the pond. Interestingly, in this particular book it states that 73rd OTU was a preliminary training unit for all RAF pilots transistioning to the Thundrbolt in SEAC. Of course the 73rd remained in Egypt for a few years acter the war. I often see SEAC or supposedly so, Thundrbolts in the grey and green with the same markings as aircraft with the green and brown scheme. Would they go through the trouble to paint all the insignia markings on the grey and green aircraft only to repaint them again in the brown and green? ANyway, thanks for the info regarding the change in color schemes.

[thx6667]

Greetings,

I was going through an overpriced and very thin book called "P-47 Thunderbolt", a warbirds/footfax book, and noticed a photo of a T-bolt Mk I supposedly in a two tone green scheme. The picture is black and white and the caption read" the two tone olive drab jungle paint was standard in late 1944" More than likely the scheme dark green and brown typical of CBI RAF aircraft but I am not sure. Either the author was just guessing from the photo or he knows something others, or at least myself do not know. I will put it to my highly respected modeling experts to help me with this minor dilemma. Any ideas on this?

Cheers

Er... nope. I have that book, its got some great info but the niceties of RAF T-Bolt camo isn't one of them. That pretty much starts and ends with Geoff Thomas' research over the decades, I was lucky to correspond with Geoff who helped me out with some projects, and he's thoroughness pretty much left no stone unturned and little ambiguity lefton the subject.

I've got a book on the Harrier that mentions "dark blue scheme" (or something) for EDSG!

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jonathan Mock

[Jennings Heilig]

I love that authors (among others) make color pronouncements based on nothing but a black & white photo. The only thing you can state for *certain* from looking at a black & white photo is that the airplane was two colors of grey. Nothing more. You can add other evidence to make an educated guess, even a really good educated guess. But if there's nothing but a b&w photo, the airplane could have been mauve & chartreuse for all he knew.

I once threatened to build a Bf109 and paint it purple, dark blue, and light pink (on the belly), then photograph it in b&w and have the proprietor of a certain well known (error prone) decal line tell me it was RLM 74/75/76 "for sure". He swore he could discern colors based on nothing else...

Riiiiiiight.

J

Edited February 9, 2012 by Jennings Heilig

[spitfire]

HI Randy

you might want to edit the quoted picture out...

the RAF tropical scheme was Dark green/dark earth uppers with medium sea grey undersides, from UK factories in day fighter scheme, [dg/og/msg]and the dark earth painted over the Ocean grey in theatre or at a MU ...hopefully someone with more knowledge will know. Only very late on were they left in OG, like some Spitfire XIVs or s that just profiles getting it wrong again?

But...when the USAAF dropped camoflage other user still wanted camo, and P-47's were factory painted, the reason I mention this given the bright sunlight the undersides of these P-47's looks very dark, like neutral grey, and the green has that viridian hue seen in US medium green... so are these in US equivalent colors? or even Medium green/olive drab uppers? paging Nick Millman....

there are color pics of bostons in this finish but my daughter wants me.....post later

cheers

T

More from "RAF Thunderbolts"

The factory finished P-47's were finished in ANA613 Olive Drab for Dark Green , ANA603 Sea Grey for Ocean Grey, but as the ANA equivalent for MSG was also ANA 603 which would not have given a demarcation between uppers and undersides so ANA 602 Light Gray was used.

Cheers

Dennis

Edited February 9, 2012 by spitfire

[thx6667]

the RAF tropical scheme was Dark green/dark earth uppers with medium sea grey undersides, from UK factories in day fighter scheme, [dg/og/msg]and the dark earth painted over the Ocean grey in theatre or at a MU ...hopefully someone with more knowledge will know. Only very late on were they left in OG, like some Spitfire XIVs or s that just profiles getting it wrong again?

Geoff Thomas is quite sure that no RAF Jug in SEAC markings ever carried grey camouflage. It's prevalence in artwork profiles seems to be an error being repeated down the years.

But...when the USAAF dropped camoflage other user still wanted camo, and P-47's were factory painted, the reason I mention this given the bright sunlight the undersides of these P-47's looks very dark, like neutral grey, and the green has that viridian hue seen in US medium green... so are these in US equivalent colors? or even Medium green/olive drab uppers?

No Dark Earth, or a variant of, and the green either the US original or British Dark Green.

[Test Graham]

I don't think (I'm open to correction) that Medium Green was considered as a suitable substitution for RAF Dark Green, presumably because it and the USAAF Dark Green were no longer in production for US use. OD was considered an acceptable substitute both for RAF Dark Green and for RAF Dark Earth, which leads to obvious problems. There are photos showing (eg C-47s) carrying two shades of OD that would indeed have sufficed, but I'm sure that wasn't what was intended! I don't think I've seen any examples where OD was used as a substitute for DE, which was generally out of use for most US-supplied types. It is a little surprising that the P-47s weren't painted directly in the SEAC approved colours, given their lack of use anywhere else.

The underside problem is of wider interest: many US aircraft supposedly in the dark Neutral Grey appear to be in a much lighter colour, possibly AN602 Light Grey. I don't think there has been anything published that justifies such use officially, but it does seem to be widespread.

For all Geoff Thomas's excellent research, not every T'bolt pilot in SEAC agreed with his conclusions (no green/grey aircraft), something he put down to excessive fading in the extreme conditions. But it would be a brave modeller who took that as a more general guide to the colour of a more randomly selected aircraft. If the DE faded so dramatically, presumably so would the DG...we could have some variegated models on display.

[Steven Eisenman]

Medium Green was not used as a camouflage color other than the blotches on such aircraft as the P-40. What was acceptable to the RAF as a substitute for Dark Green was OD ANA613, which was different in tone from Dark OD 41. 613 was a "greener" OD, and not adopted in practice by the USAAF. USAAF retained the use of OD 41 on combat aircraft until camouflage was discontinued. ANA 613 was, however, used on aircraft that continued to be painted such as the C-46 and C-47.

As for fading, perhaps the DE excessive fading was not the same paint as the DG, which was factory applied. The only comparison in fading would be where the entire aircraft was repainted.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Steven Eisenman

[Test Graham]

As for fading, perhaps the DE excessive fading was not the same paint as the DG, which was factory applied. The only comparison in fading would be where the entire aircraft was repainted.

The difference in exposure between the factory-applied paint and the theatre-applied would be marginal, compared with the exposure received in service. That different paints fade/change hue at different rates is true, but this is dependent upon the pigments used rather than the origin. It is generally safe to say that MAP Dark Earth generally went lighter, whereas MAP Dark Green went brown, but it seems that some batches went more light green. How overseas-produced DG or DE went does not seem to have been recorded, other than that overseas DE appears to have started out darker than UK-produced varieties. OD seems to have gone browner, or greyer, but came from a range of sources and hence a range of behaviours with time.

Thomas does suggest, and his position requires, that the grey reportedly seen on SEAC P-47s was just heavily faded DE. What may have been misleading those looking at b+w photos is that postwar (or very late war) P-47s do show a very high contrast between the uppersurface colours, displaying a very similar range of tones to that of heavily faded Day Fighter Scheme Dark Green/Ocean Grey.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Graham Boak

[Spitfires Forever]

The difference in exposure between the factory-applied paint and the theatre-applied would be marginal, compared with the exposure received in service. That different paints fade/change hue at different rates is true, but this is dependent upon the pigments used rather than the origin. It is generally safe to say that MAP Dark Earth generally went lighter, whereas MAP Dark Green went brown, but it seems that some batches went more light green. How overseas-produced DG or DE went does not seem to have been recorded, other than that overseas DE appears to have started out darker than UK-produced varieties. OD seems to have gone browner, or greyer, but came from a range of sources and hence a range of behaviours with time.

Thomas does suggest, and his position requires, that the grey reportedly seen on SEAC P-47s was just heavily faded DE. What may have been misleading those looking at b+w photos is that postwar (or very late war) P-47s do show a very high contrast between the uppersurface colours, displaying a very similar range of tones to that of heavily faded Day Fighter Scheme Dark Green/Ocean Grey.

It is interesting to see die cast models produced by Corgi and others in SEAC markings with the day fighter theme. I picked up a Monogram P-47 kit still sealed from 1973. the markings are clearly SEAC but it calls for the grey and green day fighter

scheme. I have seen several kits and decal sets that call for the same scheme. It is hard to account for this, and since no P-47 units that I am aware of ever flew operationally at least in Europe this whole situation intrigues me, thus my posting.

[Spitfires Forever]

Geoff Thomas is quite sure that no RAF Jug in SEAC markings ever carried grey camouflage. It's prevalence in artwork profiles seems to be an error being repeated down the years.

No Dark Earth, or a variant of, and the green either the US original or British Dark Green.

There are a plethora of kits and decal sets depicting the grey and green scheme for both the Spitfire and the P-47, thus the confusion.

[Chuck1945]

I don't have Geoff's book open in front of me just now, but I do recall from when I built a SEAC Thunderbolt II a comment that sometimes the protective coating applied to Thunderbolts shipped to India was not completely cleaned off and the paint job applied in India would, as a result, not be good (durable).

[Fernando]

I love that authors (among others) make color pronouncements based on nothing but a black & white photo. The only thing you can state for *certain* from looking at a black & white photo is that the airplane was two colors of grey. Nothing more. You can add other evidence to make an educated guess, even a really good educated guess. But if there's nothing but a b&w photo, the airplane could have been mauve & chartreuse for all he knew.

I once threatened to build a Bf109 and paint it purple, dark blue, and light pink (on the belly), then photograph it in b&w and have the proprietor of a certain well known (error prone) decal line tell me it was RLM 74/75/76 "for sure". He swore he could discern colors based on nothing else...

Riiiiiiight.

J

It is not "nothing else"... it is the b&w photo compared to some standards... in that sense, it is possible to affirm that a certain 109 in a certain timeframe and captured in b&w is "for sure" in 74/75/76.

Fernando