British aircarft finish specifications

[Pete57]

The specs covering the exterior and interior colors of US aircraft of the WWII era can be found in the Finish Specification-Section of the respective Erection & Maintenance Manual.

Where can I find the same information regarding British aircraft?

Were there also aircraft-specific manuals or were they rather covered by general rules and regulations?

Regards,

Pete57

[xvtonker]

For post-war British military aircraft the AP119A-0601 series of Air Publications provided all of the internal & external colours and markings.

These covered RAF, RN and Army aircraft.

If this set of documents is of interest drop me a PM

XVTonker

[brewerjerry]

Hi

This is in a thread in the coldwar section,it is a manual on paint finishes.

cheers

Jerry

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app...qayttUUZjR0E9PQ

[Pete57]

Thanks for the info!

I'd already downloaded the .zip file as my interest is not limited to WWII only.

But, what about WWII?

Can someone tell me what the then-current standards were, and where they can be downloaded/purchased?

Thanks,

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pete57

[Edgar]

It's rather more complex than might seem so at first. The D.T.D. set down the specific paint for a particular surface, e.g 83A for fabric, 308 for metal, 517A (1942) Synthetic finish for metal. The manufacturers were told which type of paint to use, while the Air Ministry told everybody, via Their "Orders" (abbreviated to A.M.O.,) which colours to use for a particular scheme. Manufacturers were expected to do their own stock-keeping, and ordering, and had to mark the surfaces with a D.T.D. stamp, which included the paint number; any unit (RAF or civilian) was expected to do any repaints using the same type, unless (as in the case of the Spitfire, and others, in 1942) the type was changed.

For research you'll need to find all of the D.T.D. Technical Circulars, to decipher what units were being told, together with the A.M.O.s, to decipher the A.M.'s general orders. It's tempting, for instance, to think that DTD 360 was DTD 360, full stop, but, in February 1943, it specified that all fighters, heading for Malta (alone) were to have Light Mediterranean Blue undersides; in November 1943 that anomaly had disappeared, leaving one to wonder if that was looking ahead to the invasion of Sicily.

Some companies, like Supermarine, issued drawings, specifying colours and types, but tended to update them, while keeping the same drawing no., so Issue 1 would have been 1938(ish,) while issue 6 could be around 1944. As an example, early Spitfires had silver specified for the general interior colour (apart from the cockpit, of course,) but some time later (date not yet known, but around 1945) this changed to green, hence a recently-seen 22 with green wheel wells.

Edgar

[Pete57]

Hi Edgar,

Thanks for the useful info – I thought it’d be easier for British than US aircraft, now I know it’s not!

Perhaps - and given the experience - you can help me limit my search.

What I’m looking for is the specs that covered the finish of the following types

Gloster G40 E.28/39

Gloster F.9/40

Gloster G.41A thru G.41F (Meteor F.MkI thru early, long-span Mk.IV) both experimental and Squadron 616 service

De Havilland E.6/41 Spider Crab (Vampire prototypes)

De Havilland DH.100 Vampire F.Mk.I

Thanks,

Pete57

[HBBates]

.... As an example, early Spitfires had silver specified for the general interior colour (apart from the cockpit, of course,) but some time later (date not yet known, but around 1945) this changed to green, hence a recently-seen 22 with green wheel wells.

Edgar

Edgar...in regardes to silver specified for the general interior colour, did this apply to all RAF fighter type in the 40-41 time frame?

Reason I ask, there has be an ongoing question over on Hyperscale in regards to what was the Tomahawk wheel wells color and in looking at some Curtis factory photos it would seem silver would fit

In the photo below...in the b/w photo below showing the gear door... while you can never be sure with a b/w photo...it does look a lot like silver paint

In the color photo the wheel hub is clearly silver

And finaly in the lowel color photo showing overspray on the wing around the wheel fairing...while I still think this is the gray underwing camo color ... it could again be silver

So if silver was the know RAF spec at the time for wheel wells it would seem to fit with what is seen in the photos

[greatgonzo]

In the color photo the wheel hub is clearly silver

As Edgar mentioned many times before, it is impossible to say for sure what colour were the wheel wells, as they could have been treated as interior or underside. This goes for Spitfire at least.

The P-4o hub looks clearly silver if You want it to. I took a look at the picture before reading Your text and saw a hub painted some tinted grey colour. It would be logical to paint the wheel hubs of P-40 with underside colour, as they were nothing else as underside surface in the end. American version of Sky in this case IIRC.

Being not sure of the actual hub paint I wanted to point out it is only seldom easier to pin the colour with wartime colour photographs. With uncertain monitor settings and so on we do get the trouble doubled.

[Edgar]

Edgar...in regardes to silver specified for the general interior colour, did this apply to all RAF fighter type in the 40-41 time frame?

Without the companies' drawings, it's impossible to say with any certainty. Eye witnesses have seen silver on the Hurricane and Typhoon, and green on the Tempest and (one) late Spitfire, but that's a bit thin to base a whole theory on.

Edgar

[HBBates]

It would be logical to paint the wheel hubs of P-40 with underside colour, as they were nothing else as underside surface in the end. American version of Sky in this case IIRC.

In fact from photos taken at the same time at the Curtiss factory, the wheel hubs of US Army P-40's were a green (looks to be a green cromate same as the wheel well) vs the H81 Tomahawks ...as that side of the hub was "UP" facing the well roof and not seen went the gear was retracted, the color would not be seen as part of the underside surface

Edited January 16, 2012 by HBBates

[venomvixen]

Hi

This is in a thread in the coldwar section,it is a manual on paint finishes.

cheers

Jerry

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app...qayttUUZjR0E9PQ

Massively useful for those of us wot play with the real ones.

Thanks muchly

[greatgonzo]

HBBates

Of course You are right and I have made a monkey out of myself with P-40 gear.

Colours in the pictures? Well...

Edited January 16, 2012 by greatgonzo

[Nick Millman]

There may be chronological/developmental aspects to this as well as user requirements. Aluminium (in both leafing and non-leafing paint coatings) is a barrier pigment whereas zinc chromate (and its close associates) is a corrosion inhibitor. I won't clog up this thread with the differences but will post in more depth about it on my blog with discussion of P-36 interiors. There was clearly some developmental work by Curtiss or their coating manufacturers that ran through the P-36-P-40 series. Bear in mind that the protective treatment of light metals was a relatively new development. It is possible that in certain applications aluminium paint was applied over a corrosion-inhibiting coating or it might be that for the RAF (with specific climatic circumstances) the consideration of permeability to water/moisture was considered more important at that time than structural corrosion inhibition. In any event with full-on war footing aluminium was going to become a priority commodity so it was almost inevitable that its use as a barrier pigment would decline, especially with the development of more sophisticated corrosion inhibiting coatings based on chromates of zinc where other barrier pigments could also be incorporated.

Specification D.T.D.399 (finish "P") grey green, for example, was a hydraulic resisting paint coating, so the catch-all idea of common and identical "interior" coatings encompassing cockpits, wheel wells and other orifices probably requires re-thinking, at least in terms of composition if not colour.

[Pete57]

Without the companies' drawings, it's impossible to say with any certainty. Eye witnesses have seen silver on the Hurricane and Typhoon, and green on the Tempest and (one) late Spitfire, but that's a bit thin to base a whole theory on.

Edgar

Hi Edgar,

Thanks for the clarification.

Now, where would I get the dwgs, given that both Gloster and De Havilland no longer exist?

For US aircraft, I can turn to the NASM which acts as a repository of vintage aircraft manuals (they have a HUGE selection!), but what about British aircraft?

Thanks,

[Edgar]

For de Havilland, the first place I'd try would be the De Havilland Aircraft Heritage Centre (which incorporates the Mosquito Aircraft Museum) at P.O. Boc 107, Salisbury Hall, London Colney, St. Albans, AL2 1EX, 01727 826400, [email protected]. net / www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk.

For Gloster, start with the Jet Age Museum, operated by Gloucestershire Aviation collection; access is by prior appointment, and the contact is John Lewer, 34, Kittiwake Drive, Kidderminster, DY10 4RS www.jetagemuseum.org. I have a vague feeling that they're under threat of eviction.

The information come from the 2010 edition of "Wrecks & Relics," by Ken Ellis; as it's a biennial item, a new edition is due around June this year.

I have 2 copies of drawing 30000 sht 28 for the Spitfire, the first of which dates from (at least) 1943; the instructions are liberally studded with DTD references, so are dictated by the Air Ministry; this hints at the possibility that the same strictures applied to other companies, but it would be dangerous to assume that as a definite.

In order for them to be legible the drawings need to be enlarged to at least A2/A3 size, so I can't put it on here, but I can give you a little bit of the gist.

1/. All aluminium alloy parts other than those constructed of alclad to be anodised (see DTD910) after working.

2/. All contact surfaces between dissimilar metals to be treated with chromate jointing paste ("Duralc") & assembled wet, other contact surfaces must be assembled with "Duralac" or an approved undercoat U.P.1 or DTD 517.

3/. STANDARD PAINT TREATMENT For this machine all components & parts are to be finally protected with one coat of U.P.1 undercoat, grey, followed by a finishing coat pigmented with aluminium to DTD 63A unless otherwise stated in the following list.

4/. FUSELAGE A. Interior:- cockpit to be finished grey-green cellulose enamel to DTD 63A over the priming coat. B. Exterior:- camouflage finish in accordance with drg no. 30064 Sht 17 using undercoat and camouflage finishing coats to DTD 517.

5/. FABRIC To be protected in accordance with approved doping scheme, i.e. 3 coats red dope followed by camouflage colours to DTD 308 (note that this is even less than the "Scheme Z" which I'd heard of, which was five coats [first two thinned to half strength.] Note, too, the elimination of silver, as an interim coat, from fabric surfaces.)

6/. Alclad petrol tanks & interior of cowlings to receive one coat of grey chromate undercoating UP1 or UP2 followed by one coat of aluminium cellulose to DTD 63A.

7/. Tinned steel oil tank & brass header tank to receive one coat of UP1 undercoating followed by one coat of aluminium cellulose to DTD 63A

On the later sheet (with the annoyingly illegible dates), the interior scheme is 1 coat etching primer + 1 coat grey-green DTD 63B or DTD827, and that included flap interiors.

That only really scratches the surface, but might be some help (or a lot of hindrance, of course.)

Edgar

[Pete57]

Edgar,

Thank you so much!

Regards,

Pete57