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Antoine

Tempest Middle East camo?

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Hello,

I'm wondering about tempest VI camo used during their stay in the Middle East, especially those of 249 sqn at Habbaniya, Iraq, and of 6 sqn at Deversoir, Egypt, in the late 40's.

I understand that both had the DG/OG over MSG scheme, but that there could have been another scheme for 6 sqn during their ops over Palestine, with some light brown and faded green similar to today's IDF/AF pale green.

Any informations?

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Hello,

I'm wondering about tempest VI camo used during their stay in the Middle East, especially those of 249 sqn at Habbaniya, Iraq, and of 6 sqn at Deversoir, Egypt, in the late 40's.

I understand that both had the DG/OG over MSG scheme, but that there could have been another scheme for 6 sqn during their ops over Palestine, with some light brown and faded green similar to today's IDF/AF pale green.

Any informations?

Antoine

see here

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/...urleyspit18.htm

I became interested in this scheme firstly because of the controversial camo scheme, recently (re)-discovered by the SAM team when they were researching and producing the Camoflage & Markings No. 5 - RAF Fighters 1945-1950 Overseas Based. This unusual desert scheme of Light Slate Grey and Dark Earth over Medium Sea Grey was apparently worn by 208 Squadron Spit 18s and 213 Squadron Tempest 6s in Egypt in the 1948-49 period when the RAF was trying to police the clashes between the Palestinians and Israelis in the Middle East. Profiles of both a Spit 18 and a Tempest 6 are shown in the book, and when I saw the colour scheme I just had to give it a go.....

A Tempest VI scheme in these colours is on the Model Alliance Tempest sheet.

HTH

T

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No.135 Sqn also in Egypt had some aircraft painted with a desert scheme of Dark Earth / Light Slate Grey over and Medium Sea Grey under.

Heres a link from The Hawker Tempest webpage, description is on the aircraft 5th from bottom of page

Most 249 Sqn Tempests would have looked something like the ones here

Mike

Edited by smackers

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A Tempest VI scheme in these colours is on the Model Alliance Tempest sheet.

Thanks troy.

I have aeromaster sheet nr.48-329 'storm in the sky, tempest, part.VI, and I didn't know about the model alliance sheet.

No.135 Sqn also in Egypt had some aircraft painted with a desert scheme of Dark Earth / Light Slate Grey over and Medium Sea Grey under.

Heres a link from The Hawker Tempest webpage, description is on the aircraft 5th from bottom of page

Thanks for the link, Mike.

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No.135 Sqn also in Egypt had some aircraft painted with a desert scheme of Dark Earth / Light Slate Grey over and Medium Sea Grey under.

Heres a link from The Hawker Tempest webpage, description is on the aircraft 5th from bottom of page

Most 249 Sqn Tempests would have looked something like the ones here

The aircraft in the photo certainly has the DE/LSG/MSG scheme but the squadron is No 213 not 135 (which did not exist post-war nor ever flew Tempests).

The other two squadrons in the Deversoir wing, Nos 6 and 249, also wore this scheme. 'light brown and faded green' could be a description of this scheme as Light Slate Grey has a definite green tint. Sqn codes were not displayed - just individual letters. Sqn badges in the formal frame on the fin fillet and a simplified version on the radiator access panel (which was painted a dark colour. There is a photo of a 249 Sqn Tempest in this scheme which has been published in several books, including the SAM publication mentioned earlier; it depicts NX170/K which appears to have the red/white (port/stbd halves) spinner adopted earlier by the unit and the badge on the rad panel is in a light coloured disc (probably yellow, as that is the colour reported in earlier schemes and perhaps represents the sun from the formal badge). The panel itself is a dark colour, possibly red. 'K' was aft of the roundel.

I don't know about this aircraft but the sqn also reported painting the insides of the u/c main and 'D' doors red and white. Can't recall the exact style but I think I have a photo somewhere ...

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Many thanks, Chris, appreciated, and very interesting.

Maybe you can help a bit more with this one?

This project (It is official, it's a modelling project! :D ) came into being seeing this decals sheet from aeromaster.

I know that aeromaster has been dubbed errormaster, but I will never be able to give them enough thanks for just having the guts to try, at a time where other decals brand were staying within the boundaries of what was well known.

This is the sheet, 48-329 Storms in the sky Tempest Part.VI (I'm lucky to have all but one in the storms in the sky sheets serie).

temp_010.jpg

I was at first interested by this one, from No.6 sqn, at Déversoir, because of the back story, Anglo-Israeli clashes during the latter's war of independence.

temp_011.jpg

Then also by this one, said to have been seen at Habbaniya. I was not familiar with 249 codes after WW2, but found out latter that NX126 was indeed from 249.

temp_012.jpg

I'm now even more interested by NX126, now that you said that 249 was at a time in Déversoir.

I've read about all of this long time ago, Spitfire over Israel, from B. Cull, S. Aloni, and D. Nicolle.

But I don't have the book with me here in Taipei.

Any other interesting books on the subject?

Also, can't remember which squadron was involved in the clash with Israeli spits, when one tempest was downed.

Maybe 213, but I'm not so sure.

Edited by Antoine

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I know that aeromaster has been dubbed errormaster, but I will never be able to give them enough thanks for just having the guts to try, at a time where other decals brand were staying within the boundaries of what was well known.

This is the sheet, 48-329 Storms in the sky Tempest Part.VI (I'm lucky to have all but one in the storms in the sky sheets serie).

I'm now even more interested by NX126, now that you said that 249 was at a time in Déversoir.

I've read about all of this long time ago, Spitfire over Israel, from B. Cull, S. Aloni, and D. Nicolle.

But I don't have the book with me here in Taipei.

Any other interesting books on the subject?

Also, can't remember which squadron was involved in the clash with Israeli spits, when one tempest was downed.

Maybe 213, but I'm not so sure.

I hope you do not find too many errors in the Aeromaster 'Storms in the Sky' sheets, as I was an adviser for most of them!

Tempest 6 markings are difficult to pin down as in 3 years service they wore 3 or 4 different schemes, changed roundel types and styles of unit markings. These changes were implemented over a matter of months so that (particularly in 1949) there was always a mix of markings evident on any squadron's aircraft.

The IAF clash took place on 7 Jan 49 and involved 17 Tempests from 6 and 213 sqns (249 did not join the wing until March 49). At the time 3/4 of the Tempests were still in the wartime Day Fighter Scheme, the remainder were in 'Aluminium' painted finish. The new 'Desert scheme' was not introduced until July or August 1949 and all the Tempests were not repainted until the following November - by which time re-equipment was about to start!

Unfortunately the squadron records do not record which individual aircraft took part in the IAF incident - I only know one for certain - JV-T NX134 'Lady Jane' - which was flown by P3 Liquorish and took several hits including a bullet through the main wing spar. It wore the 'Aluminium' scheme.

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Thanks Chris,

About 249, what was its permanent station?

Was it Déversoir, with a detachment at Habbaniya?

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About 249, what was its permanent station?

Was it Déversoir, with a detachment at Habbaniya?

249 Sqn bases with Tempest 6 were ....

Dec46 Habbaniya;

to Ramat David 13 April 48;

to Habbaniya 17 May 48;

to Deversoir 29 March 49;

to Nicosia 28 June 49;

to Deversoir 8 August 49. Last Tempests departed for UK March 1950 (first Vampires had arrived in January).

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Hi Antoine, I built the Eduard Tempest a few years ago, converted to a Mk VI using the MDC set, and then finished in the "desert" scheme using the Model Alliance decals. The decals themselves were a bit translucent - so the white dulls out a little, I'm guessing if they've reprinted since 2007 this may not be an issue any more though.

3e423eb4.jpg

e3f5aa00.jpg

b5aa6474.jpg

c2dd545f.jpg

287e529f.jpg

My kit had 2 sets of prop blades, and I used the broader "paddle" ones for the Mk VI. I also used some quickboost resin exhausts, though if I were doing this again, I'd go for the far nicer Ultracast ones ( and wheels too), as I think the Quickboost ones are a little undersize.

MDC aslo provide the belly mounted dust filter too - and this needs a little more detail added (refs for which possibly weren't as available a few years ago), so on my model its still a bit of a resin lump!

The model also features a thinned tailplane fillet, and thinned wing depth ( one of the main problems with Eduards model are its wings are a bit thick, and the tail fillet is way too thick) - which is fun to do! and makes fitting the MDC wing inserts more of a challenge too. I didnt extend the rear fuselage as, at the time, I felt the the thinned tail fillet made the area look acceptable, though I would if I were to make the model again.

The Mk VI also featured 2 emergency survival water bottles, stowed behind the headrest- so these were made from sprue. I rebuilt the UC on my model as the kit supplied was a bit thin and stalky for my tastes.

Love to see what you will do. If I can help at all, just call.

cheers

Jonners

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Lovely model there Jonners, although there are a couple of inaccuracies with the Model Alliance decals and colour scheme. See below,

NX185-O-F6-port-640.jpg

Yw67171.jpg

Note the slightly higher than usual placement of the serial number and the roundel a little further aft than usual. Note also the unusual upper/lower colour demarcation line around the radiator in particular and the coloured radiator access panel as mentioned by Chris. On this aircraft it appeared to be red as shown. Model Alliance also seem to have the squadron badge on the fin a little too big and missing the black bars.

Hope this helps.

Mark

Edited by StephenMG

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Lovely model there Jonners, although there are a couple of inaccuracies with the Model Alliance decals and colour scheme. See below,

NX185-O-F6-port-640.jpg

Yw67171.jpg

Note the slightly higher than usual placement of the serial number and the roundel a little further aft than usual. Note also the unusual upper/lower colour demarcation line around the radiator in particular and the coloured radiator access panel as mentioned by Chris. On this aircraft it appeared to be red as shown. Model Alliance also seem to have the squadron badge on the fin a little too big and missing the black bars.

Hope this helps.

Mark

Hi Mark - useful info - thanks. I must admit - I cant see any indication in the BW pic of the area around the nose badge being anything other than the camo colour, though I'd quite happily paint it red if thats the case!

I realise that 6Sqn used this red b/g on their other como'ed machines, so is there definite proof it was used on the "desert" schemed ones?

Cheers

Jonners

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Jonners, I agree, that particular photo is quite poor and doesn't show much especially well. However, I based the profile artwork on an excellent photo, that I am not able to pass on or reproduce I'm afraid, taken from the front quarter of that aircraft. It showed the radiator area superbly and clearly shows the camo demarcation being non-standard and a solid, darker background to the radiator access panel. It's impossible to be 100% certain of the colour, but red seems to be the most likely based on other aircraft and comparison of the shade of grey with the spinner.

Incidentally the profile I posted is one of about 40 I produced for the recent Hawker Tempest book by Tony Buttler and published by Dalrymple & Verdun. (Plug, plug, plug :D )

Mark

Edited by StephenMG

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Jonners, I agree, that particular photo is quite poor and doesn't show much especially well. However, I based the profile artwork on an excellent photo, that I am not able to pass on or reproduce I'm afraid, taken from the front quarter of that aircraft. It showed the radiator area superbly and clearly shows the camo demarcation being non-standard and a solid, darker background to the radiator access panel. It's impossible to be 100% certain of the colour, but red seems to be the most likely based on other aircraft and comparison of the shade of grey with the spinner.

Incidentally the profile I posted is one of about 40 I produced for the recent Hawker Tempest book by Tony Buttler and published by Dalrymple & Verdun. (Plug, plug, plug :D )

Mark

Cheers Mark - out with the red paint then!

Shameless plugging, will get you everywhere too! :)

cheers

Jonners

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I didn't know about the MDC set for the F.6, and already bought aiwaves's, which seems to look more simple?

I'd also get some barracuda wheels, intended for late firefly, but I think they'll fit the tempest.

Only thing is they got block tread.

Jonners, you got to tell me about those tempest exhaust from ultracast.

I'm a big fan of their products, but I didn't found any tempest exhaust on their catalogue.

Prove me I'm wrong.

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I didn't know about the MDC set for the F.6, and already bought aiwaves's, which seems to look more simple?

I'd also get some barracuda wheels, intended for late firefly, but I think they'll fit the tempest.

Only thing is they got block tread.

Jonners, you got to tell me about those tempest exhaust from ultracast.

I'm a big fan of their products, but I didn't found any tempest exhaust on their catalogue.

Prove me I'm wrong.

Hi Antoine - to the best of my knowledge you can use the Typhoon exhaust stacks from Ultracast on your Tempest ( they seem pretty identical to me!). Nice idea on the wheels too- the hubs look identical, but I see what you mean about the block tread ( I 'm sure it can be sanded off though!)

cheers, Jonners

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Hi Antoine - to the best of my knowledge you can use the Typhoon exhaust stacks from Ultracast on your Tempest ( they seem pretty identical to me!). Nice idea on the wheels too- the hubs look identical, but I see what you mean about the block tread ( I 'm sure it can be sanded off though!)

cheers, Jonners

Exhaust, yep. same engines, same exhaust.

The Barracudacals Firefly/Sea Fury wheels will work, as the Tempest and Sea Fury use the same landing gear.

if you can find it the Jaguar Tempest set is very good.

The A2Zee Tempest upgrade set contains replacement wheels as well. The Eduard ones are a bit crap.

The info on the desert scheme Tempest is very useful indeed Mark.... I was thinking about the Model Alliance sheet, don't know if I'll bother now.

Note, in the photo, the inside of the gear doors is not aluminium like the wheel hubs, as shown in these colour pics

Part of Etienne's photos.

Hawker Tempest II, Aug. 1945.

This Tempest belonging to 16 Sqn. saw service at Fassberg, Germany as part of the occupation forces after the end of hostilities.

this one is great. Note the possibly replacement rudder and blue tips to the drop tanks.

anyone happen to know the full Sq code and individual letter?

5481381292_50719b9cc3_o.jpg

factory fresh MKII's

3032770624_51331675af_o.jpg

Does anyone know of good pics or drawings of the F.6 radiator, front and back?

Thanks

T

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Hi Antoine - to the best of my knowledge you can use the Typhoon exhaust stacks from Ultracast on your Tempest ( they seem pretty identical to me!). Nice idea on the wheels too- the hubs look identical, but I see what you mean about the block tread ( I 'm sure it can be sanded off though!)

Hi, Jonner,

I should have known about the exhausts.

For the wheel tread, I do not bother too much, an aircraft use a certain number during its operational life, and it would be surprising if there where not one or two pairs of block tread on the lot.

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Hi there

Well I have lots of questions about that Clash so a while ago I made some inquires here the results

RE: RAF Tempest Mk VI against the IDF-AF 1948

Hide Details

FROM: Malcolm Barrass

TO: René Armando Girón Amaya

Message flagged

Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:52 AM

Message body

Hi Rene

Many thanks for your message through my website.

It would appear that as a result of the incident to which you refer, a complete review of RAF camouflage in the area was carried out. This was due to the aircraft involved being in the standard Day Fighter Scheme and instructions were issued to have the aircraft repainted in aluminium.

So I think the answer to your question id Day Fighter colours.

All the best

Malcolm Barrass

'Air of Authority'

www.rafweb.org

Air-Britain 18070

Cross & Cockade International

RAF Historical Society

ex Flt Lt RAFVR(T)

Disabled Flying Scholar 1992

East Yorkshire

Air Force Lists on CD-ROM

-----Original Message-----

From: René Armando Girón Amaya [mailto:armandogiron@yahoo.com]

Sent: 12 October 2005 08:58

To: feedback1@rafweb.org

Subject: RAF Tempest Mk VI against the IDF-AF 1948

DEAR SIRS

As fellow plastic modeler interested in maybe so many subjects came into my attention some very dark incidents involving the post WWII RAF 6 Sqn against the IDF AF Spitfires Mk IXe so I wonder if you can help a little with my present modelistic issue I got a little old Matchbox Tempest Mk II / VI model kit (that included the 6 Sqn markings stationed in Cyprus late 1945 )intended to show one that actually clashed 7 January 1949 with the IDF AF so now my question is pretty simple

Do the 6 SQN Tempest Mk VI use standard day fighter RAF camoflaged in the clash or they already use the aluminum dope scheme or still using them as the Tempest in the 213 Sqn already in the same date??

Best regards

Armando Giron

PD I also attached some previous mail with another well now fellow modeler and writer only hoping that you notice the serius intention on my writing at the same time asking sorry for my mistake english composition

Yoav Efrati

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:09:44 +0200

From: Yoav Efrati Subject: RE: RAF Tempest Mk VI against the IDF-AF 1948

To: "Ren?\" Armando \"Gir?n\" Amaya" armandogiron@yahoo.com

-----Original Message-----

To: Yoav Efrati

Subject: RAF Tempest Mk VI against the IDF-AF 1948

Hi Yoav

Here again with some more questions to you

I was checking in the Ventura and Mafe Huerta books about some RAF Spitfires & Tempest lost/damaged by IDF Spitfires in 1948 only to find that the 1/2 scale very old Tempest MkII/MkIV Matchbox Kit actually include the decals for one of them

I got that kit just recently as a gift (well canopyless) so I checked the kit against the Special Hobbie Sea Furry only to find an extra vacum canopy, then take the Matchbox Mk II nose in order to make in a future a better PM Sea Fury. Then notice that the MkVI version includes decals for the RAF 6 SQ and locates them in Cyprus in 1945 but because it actually lack of ordenance I put kit aside for a while then (also because I´m in process to make some WWII and early IDF aircraft at the same time in order to optimize use of paint and whatever ) I found that the IDF not only shot down some RAF Spitfires MkXVI but also Tempest Mk VI surprize and from 6 SQ and also thar Ezer Weisman claimed to damaged one

So you know if during this incident they actually use some form of ordenance or only the underwing fuel tanks as mentioned in the Mafe Huerta book?

I BELIEVE THE BRITISH AIRPLANES WERE ON RECON PATROL SO FUEL TANKS AND INTERNAL ARMAMENT WAS ALL THEY CARRIED.

The Black Spitfire the one that Weisman take with that much care was a MkIXc or a MkIXE?

Ezer's black Spit was a 9e with elliptical wing tips.

What kind of ordenance the IDF Spitfires used ? (in the bomb racks) and if they used ocationally the old luftwaffe underwing fuel tanks for patrols during that days?

I have seen no photos of early IAF Spitfires with armament but I'm sure they carried bombs at one point or another. Displaying an IAF Spit with German fuel tanks would be both interesting and accurate.

Well that on the desk by these days

Yours, Yoav

Rene Armando Giron

El Salvador Central America

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Hi there

It would appear that as a result of the incident to which you refer, a complete review of RAF camouflage in the area was carried out. This was due to the aircraft involved being in the standard Day Fighter Scheme and instructions were issued to have the aircraft repainted in aluminium.

So I think the answer to your question id Day Fighter colours.

Hello Rene. The statement quoted above is incorrect. Please see post #7 in this thread.

The instruction to paint fighters 'silver' (ie. 'Aluminium') had been issued much earlier; from 7 May 1947 the post-war Day Fighter Scheme was to be all-over 'Aluminium' but it was to be applied only when aircraft required repainting. This was a slow process and by the time of the clash with the IAF only 25% of the Deversoir Tempest Wing (No.324, comprising 6 and 213 sqns) had been painted in the new scheme. The subsequent review mentioned eventually resulted in the new 'Desert scheme' being applied to these Tempests (and those of 249 sqn which joined the Wing in March 1949) from late July 1949.

CT

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