Bf109E W.Nmr 1641, 2/JG51 black 6?

[Troy Smith]

hi

A friend brought round a book "Battle over Sussex'

In the section on Lewes, there were some planes I'd like some camouflage and markings info on.

date 11 september 1940

Me 109E-4 (1641). Shot down by Sgt Higgins of 253 Sqd in combat over the Sussex coast. Crashed at Houndean Bottom, Lewes 3.30pm. Hptmn Wiggers (Staffel Kaptain) killed. Aircraft a write off

Me Bf 109E-4 Werknummer 1641, flown by Hptm Ernst Wiggers, commander of 2/JG51. Internet searches turn this on up as

"(6 noir - W. Nr. 1641) du 2.-JG 51 et son commandant, l'Hptm. Ernst Wiggers"

with this pic

Is the E-4 subtype, 'Black 6' correct? what was the general markings of JG51 at this stage of the BoB? I note that the RAF museum Bf109E is also from 2/JG51, though shot down a couple of months later.

The book has a picture of the plane as a burning wreck, not much use for markings info though.

thanks in advance

T

[bentwaters81tfw]

That's an interesting picture. One might be led to believe it had a variable incidence tailplane.

[Stonar]

One might be led to believe it had a variable incidence tailplane.

It did.+3.4 degrees to -8.4 degrees, though it took a lot of turning of the trim wheel (5 and 3/4 turns) to move it through the entire range.

The W.Nr rings a bell,I'll have a look when I get home in a few days.

Cheers

Steve

[JackG]

It can be found as one if the subjects in Topcolors Part II

Bf 109 E-4; W.Nr. 1641, 'Black 6', flown by Hptm. Ernst Wiggers, Staffelkapitän of 2./JG 51, St. Inglevert, September 1940

From this link.

regards,

Jack

[plimsol]

It did.+3.4 degrees to -8.4 degrees, though it took a lot of turning of the trim wheel (5 and 3/4 turns) to move it through the entire range.

The W.Nr rings a bell,I'll have a look when I get home in a few days.

Cheers

Steve

if you want a bit of esoteric know how, come to brit modeller, (I thought all me 109 pilots had been released from prison camp years ago)

[tango98]

Troy,

W.Nr. 1641 was an E-4 flown by the Staffel Kapitan of the 2./JG51 Hptmn Wiggers. It was shot down by Sgt Higgins of 253 Sqn and crashed at Houndean Bottom, Lewes at 15.30 on 11 Sept 1940 killing Wiggers. Basic camo would have been the standard 71/02 upper surfaces with 65 lower surfaces. Aside from a fuselage cross marking the only other markings information recorded is that the cowling was painted yellow as the aircraft burned out after crashing so failing finding a photo of his aircraft before its loss, your guess on any mottling or other markings being carried is as good as anyone else's.

Interestingly, although the record of the loss in the Gen Qu returns (entered on 13.9.40) only identifies the location and cause of loss as unknown, the first digit of the W.Nr. has been altered to a 2 instead of 1. Why this was done is unknown to me but it is entirely possible however, that the actual W.Nr. may have been 2641 and not 1641 as a 200 series W.Nr. is entirely possible for an E-4 of the period. But then again, in your photo a W.Nr. of 1641 is clearly visible (if of course it is the same aircraft?)

HTH

Dave

Edited December 17, 2011 by tango98

[Troy Smith]

Hi all

thanks for the info and links. Much appreciated.

Are there pics of other 2/JG51 planes around the same era, specifically, do they carry gruppe/staffel badges? This would be one for Dave i think.

The crash site is about 15 minutes walk from me, which is why I'm asking. A bit of local history.

cheers

T

[Troy Smith]

and today, when searching about, I found this

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5a3134b40672a700015a5d31/5e6b8c7dfb5051435a73f104_LCA4samplepdf.pdf

 

which has a full photo of Black 6, and some other information.    

 

possibly of interest to @Pauls9cb  as a local -ish to him crash.  

[Pauls9cb]

Thanks for the heads-up Troy. My local interest was for the book I published in 2008 (Beachy Head! Angels 20 - the BoB around Eastbourne). For sake of drawing a limit to the area covered, I'd restricted the book's content roughly to a radius of 10 miles from Eastbourne, which put Houndean Bottom beyond the scope of what I'd used as a limit. While contemporary pics are always the best reference, I'm sure you're aware that there'sa full colour profile of Black 6 in Kagero Topcolors 16 BoB Part II, but it's unclear where the marking data originates. Cheers - Paul