Dave Fleming Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) It's an interesting Swordfish, but for me the more interesting aircraft is in the background - a Hornet Moth. This could be one of the civillian ones impressed for the RAF, but could also be one of the 4 former floatplanes passed over to the FAA for communications use. http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...29357/large.jpg There is no date on the photo on the website, which merely says: Ground crew unfolding the wings of the Fairey Swordfish used for the meteorological flight from HMS SPARROWHAWK, Royal Naval Air Station, Hatston, The Orkneys. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185678# Anyone want to guess what the a/c behind the Hornet Moth is? Edited December 7, 2011 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Jones Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Anyone want to guess what the a/c behind the Hornet Moth is? Very hard to tell, but it looks quite large wth a deep fuselage, Barracuda ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Left field theory, but is there actually a plane behind the Hornet Moth? Could be various shades of the background hills looking surprisingly like a plane... Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Swindell Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I'm with Mark on this one, I'm seeing fields and possibly farm buildings with moorland behind, no aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Left field theory, but is there actually a plane behind the Hornet Moth? Could be various shades of the background hills looking surprisingly like a plane...Mark. I thought that at first, but it was the 'shadow' on the ground behind the Moth and the prop behind the right hand sailors head that convinced me otherwise. Resized it up to a ridiculous level, then saved it to see if it was any clearer. Then saved it with a lower resolution!! I see a low winged monoplane with the wing leading edge running from the nose of the Hornet, and possibly a fin above the Hornet wing. I also see what might be a person on top the fuselage!! My initial though (based on the location) was Skua or Roc, but I'm wondering Proctor or Miles type? Or (and a bit left field, but possible!) Devastator? Edited December 7, 2011 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 It appears to be a low-wing monoplane with a very high stance, and presumably a 2 or 3 blade prop. The stance is high enough to be a Sea Fury, although I'm not suggesting that as anything other than a comparison. The undercarriage looks slightly odd too. Chesapeake? Not convincing, but I can't think of anything else remotely like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Anyone want to guess what the a/c behind the Hornet Moth is? An Avenger/Tarpon or possibly a Hellcat? Low wing monoplane, high of the ground with rearward retracting u/c (hence why it appears to face forward) To be honest my first guess was a Loire-Neiuport LN401 given the high stance, the position of the prop blade and what looks like someone working on the position of cockpit/canopy , but I then thought nah, not likely. Andy Edited December 7, 2011 by andym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Chesapeake? Not convincing, but I can't think of anything else remotely like it. Could be! There were USN SB2Us there at that time as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Could be!There were USN SB2Us there at that time as well. Yup that could well be it and would explain what appears to be a two bladed prop. Also fits in with undercarriage position. Andy Edited December 7, 2011 by andym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 And the fuzzy bit that could be the vertical antenna just in front of the cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 And the fuzzy bit that could be the vertical antenna just in front of the cockpit And is that the rear of the greenhouse canopy behind the Hornets prop blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Or maybe they are just Skuas? This is the pic after the one above from the IWM site , taken at the same location and by same photographer: Edited December 7, 2011 by andym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Or maybe the "prop" is just a mark on the original print. If it's a prop, surely a second blade ought to be visible between the 2 guys who are folding/unfolding the wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moofles Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 my first guess at when seeing this was a sea fury, then i read the comments and saw that other people equally saw a fury. Who knows though eh, always fun to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The wooksta V2.0 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 The u/c suggests Skua to me and that second photo sort of clinches it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Could be!There were USN SB2Us there at that time as well. I'd forgotten that. Looking at photos, I'd say that the Devastator sits too near to the ground, but the Vindicator has the right sort of ground angle. Can we confirm the timescale of the photo as being Spring 1942? If so, that would be likely to rule out the line-up of Skuas, but the Swordfish in the main photo still has a low demarcation, which suggests too early for the Wasp or Ranger's visits. (Not sure Ranger still had SB2Us, probably not.) The Tarpon/Avenger is ruled out on time grounds as well as ground angle. The fin is wrong for a Skua, to me. If anything, it looks more like a Devastator leading edge angle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Wyllie Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I am pretty sure that it is a Chesapeake. The dihedral break is much more pronounced than on a Skua and the underside of the fuselage of the latter sits at a greater angle to the ground than that in the photo, which is more like the angle on a Chesapeake. You can see the line of the cowl gills running into the figure in the foreground just below his shoulder. They are just ahead of the windscreen and just in front of them is the radio mast. Just to the right of the Moth's propeller you can see a vertical frame line which is towards rear of the canopy and, in between the left shoulder of the figure at the cockpit and the Moth's propeller is just visible the light reflection on the camouflaged section of the canopy. There are no areas that I can see which correspond to the the shape of a Skua. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrzeM Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 From the very beginning (not reading the later posts) my guess was Skua. And the fin looks very Skuish for me! Aren't the roundels on Swordfish and the Hornet Moth some hint of the time of picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 My "instant recognition" answer was Dauntless, and a little bit of looking (only a little) seems to support it. I can't see enough of the fin to judge from. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Compare it with the first picture of the Chesapeake on this website: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/aircraft/d...-vindicator.asp It's taken from the same angle. Edited December 8, 2011 by Ivor Ramsden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Chesapeakes were in Orkney but not before 1942, or anywhere else in the UK before mid 1941. That would fit with the roundels, but the camouflage on the Swordfish points to 1940. A 1942 date could make it either a Chesapeake or a Vindicator. Of the 5 Hornet Moths, P6787 was Comms Flight Hatston until crashing 1/5/1940. P6786 is recorded at Hatston 4/1940-9/1940, but also 4/1942 to 6/1942. Its movements between 9/1940 and 4/1942 are not recorded in Sturtivant. So not a lot of help in dating the picture. The other three stayed in the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Chesapeakes were in Orkney but not before 1942, or anywhere else in the UK before mid 1941. That would fit with the roundels, but the camouflage on the Swordfish points to 1940. A 1942 date could make it either a Chesapeake or a Vindicator.Of the 5 Hornet Moths, P6787 was Comms Flight Hatston until crashing 1/5/1940. P6786 is recorded at Hatston 4/1940-9/1940, but also 4/1942 to 6/1942. Its movements between 9/1940 and 4/1942 are not recorded in Sturtivant. So not a lot of help in dating the picture. The other three stayed in the south. The SWordfish is a met Flight aircraft, so it could have an 'older' scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 It could, but how long would a Swordfish go without being re-covered and hence repainted? Two years seems a bit extreme. If the adjacent picture of the Skua line-up really is of the same date, then 1942 seems less likely. I don't think we can argue for a visiting V156F...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 It could, but how long would a Swordfish go without being re-covered and hence repainted? Two years seems a bit extreme. If the adjacent picture of the Skua line-up really is of the same date, then 1942 seems less likely.I don't think we can argue for a visiting V156F...... I agree :-) What makes me think it's 42 are the other photos in the series taken by Lt RGG Coote - He was definitely there during the time AG7 was at Hatston http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d So the line up of Skuas: http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d Then this one that has the same line of Skuas and what I suspect is our Swordfish: http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d Then you have these shots of Swordfish taxiing out: http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/29/me...ge.jpg?action=d Skies over Scapa has two pics of what I'm sure is the same line up slightly earlier when they were being armed (Although where one is dated 1942, the other 1941!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The Duck is a bit of a giveaway. Looking at the Skuas, this is not a front-line unit - at least one of them has target-tug stripes. With Skuas and Swordfish (and Chesapeakes), this is 771 Sq before its move to Twatt in July 1942. They still had a handful of Henleys - now find a photo of one of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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