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P-47M 56th FG colors


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Thanks Troy, I do dimly recall having seen that & & the nightfighter night colour thread you linked to from there, I did enjoy the discussion between @Nick Millman  & others,  I miss those threads. In the overall scheme of things, after reading those, especially Lampies thread with the photo, I'm even happier that RAF night is the way to go.

Steve.

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Mmm...

Concerning the lightblue/darkblue Thunderbolts of 63rd... ...I found a can with Hu 112 in my paintbox. I don't knew what it is good for. But it doesn't look to bad with Hu 144 USN Intermediate blue. And it goes well with Hu 230 RAF PRU Blue to...

 

/André

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On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2013 at 2:35 AM, Jennings Heilig said:

I haven't read anything except the title of this thread, but let me point out:

1. Nobody on earth *knows* (as in, has certain knowledge) what ANY of the camouflage colors used by the 56th FG were. Nobody. Unless someone comes up with some long lost documentation from the 56th that proves it, we will never know, and can never know.

2. They were using RAF paints: Really, according to what proof? Repeating something over and over and over, with no evidence to back it up, doesn't make it true.

3. Using 65+ year old color photographs printed in books and *especially* that you find online as a positive reference for color fidelity is just asking for trouble. If you're not looking at an original Kodachrome, there's no way to be sure what's happened to the color between here and there.

4. Given the above, NOBODY is going to be able to prove you painted your model the wrong color.

Well, there might be a source of 'long lost documentation' which I came across when 'thinning out' my files!

IPMS (UK) July 1968 has on the cover a picture (in fact a private photo) of a P-47M flown by Lt John W Keeler of 63 FS based at Boxted March 1945.  Inside is a plan and elevation drawing of the same a/c naming the colours as 'Insignia Blue 35044 Matt' and 'Azure Blue 35231 Matt ' and a reduced underside drawing calling out 'Natural Metal Undersides' and 'Star and Bar' on both wing surfaces and silver framed canopy.  The drawing is signed N.King and dated July '68.

The editorial thanks him for the photo but more importantly I recall him, by then a Lt Col, addressing an IPMS meeting in London and quick to distance himself from one Christine Keeler still then very much in the news!  Somewhere along the line there were official thanks for his support for the preparation of the drawing (from the photo) to which is added his 'score' of six kills, his name and rank, and the title 'Mrs K'.  Serial was 421133 in yellow, Gloss red front cowling (just discernable in the photo) and a part sketch of the Curtiss Prop 13' 1 and seven eights inch diameter, silver prop hub and natural metal leading edges to the tailplane.

Aside from copyright issues it may be deduced that, like my contemporaries, I have no idea how to post scanned material !  That said, if anyone seriously wants the material yet is unable to access the said publication, then get in touch and I will see what I can do.

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46 minutes ago, Denford said:

I have no idea how to post scanned material ! 

it needs to be uploaded as an image somewhere online, eg Flickr,. postimg or wherever, the just paste in the URL of the image.

re copyright, it's a long OOP mag, and this would fall under fair use or fair dealing.

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Oversize Star and Bar under BOTH wings became the norm on P-47s after D Day, as round engine aircraft were assumed by AA gunners to be hostile.

 

In addition to my earlier post, and in view of the above, said publication has another excellent quality photo on P 191 of Maj J Jackson's a/c, which was disruptive camo, but importantly it shows the cockpit area, which has kill markings in Black. The surrounding colour indeed looks to be Insignia blue.  A further colour photo on P 60 is a side view of 44-21112 in Insignia blue with a NMF area around the star and bar. It also has the red band on the cowl, but the rest of the cowl excluding the flaps is black. Looking again athe photo on P36 in daylight  does indeed show it is satin Insignia blue.

 

To my eye (and I have certified perfect colour vision), it seems to conclusively wrap up that the airframes were indeed a matt/satin Insignia blue and NOT black.

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Interesting: I wonder what the source was.

Keeler's machine in the photograph was coded UN-S, but in the drawing UN-K.  (the K is underlined, not just my drawing attention to is being different!).  They are described (in the drawing) as silver with white outline.  Hard to make out in the photo if they are silver or white, but definitely outlined.  That said the colour is very, very slightly darker than that of the National Insignia.

The serial number was different too as might have been expected.

There are some minor differences in the schemes, in particular Keeler's his had:

Azure Blur rudder (not 'silver')

'Painted' ie not metal wing leading edges.

Yellow codes

Silver prop hub.

In the photo, the black band finishes at colour (color?) demarcation.  Same black band not shown in drawing.

Incidentally if anyone following this can source the original IPMS 'source' there is a later 'error correction' for the drawing showing underwing stores.

Edited by Denford
Correction
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421112 was at some point UN*Z with an Azure rudder. The area to the fus. star and bar appears NMF (above) and Azure below.  Also NMF 'patch around the cockpit with either an Insignia blue or black scoreboard area below the cill. Difficult to tell with the kill markings. 

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Happened to be reading this thread in the car park on my phone just before I delivered no.1 son to his class. On the way I spotted a very dark almost insignia blue car. I asked both kids what colour it was. They hesitated and identified it as blue. 

I took a photo of it on my modern top of the range 12mp phone camera in neutral light. Now it looked black but not as black as the black car behind it. In the foreground no.2 son crept in the shot clearly wearing his navy blue raincoat. Almost the same colour as the actual car. 

One problem though, his coat is really black. Unambiguously black.

So the blue car is now black and the black coat is now blue in the photo.

 

Take from that what you will.

 

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So the 'dark blue on light blue' scheme is taking on a 'Night/Insignia blue over azure blue' theme here? I too recently bought a revell p-47m and have been dumbfounded by the controversy. Initially I was just going to stick to the revell instructions and go with the dark blue/light blue, but I am wavering.

Edited by sapperastro
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  • 7 months later...

So is there any clues concerning the colours of the codes of the 63rd aircrafts? We have white, silver (or NMT), silver outlined in red and silver outlined in white.

 

Concerning the Revell kits...

421140 UN-o-F in white

421150 UN-o-M in silver

421160 UN-o-F silver outlined in red

 

I also wonder about the stars n bars on the underside of the wings. Most manufactures as Revell and MPM has only one small insignia for the left wing but what I understand that one was replaced by bigger insignias on both wings. Or was this only made during juni - december on the older P-47D before the P-47M was in action early 1945?

 

Cheers / André

 

Edited by Andre B
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  • 1 month later...

Mmm...

Soft or hard demarkation lines between Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey on the P-47M's of 62nd FS?

 

I feel it's hard to see in pictures (compared to the P-47D's painted in Ocean Grey and Dark Green).

 

And building Revell's P-47M I discovered that blue:s and black isn't the only colours that is hard to get "right". Revell have some kind yellow code letters for the 62:nd FS. And it isn't easy to get that colour for the rudder. Revell suggest their own "matt yellow 15" for the rudder that goes ok with the code letters.

 

Sadly Revell don't provide decals in red (61:th), yellow (62:nd) and red (63:rd) for the rudder.

 

Not much left of my second P-47M build. Now I have to find the third Revell P-47M, the hard to get  black, "Brittsh Night"one from the 61:th FS. Well, at least decals...

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-04141-p-47m-thunderbolt--121154

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B
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Ok, one P-47M from 62nd in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey...

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10767&p=87469#p87469

 

Wonder if there is any black 1/72 P-47M's from 61th FS available today? They seem hard to get for acceptable prices. The same thing with decals. Shipping from USA is no longer an option because tax and postage cost..

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B
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