P-47M 56th FG colors

[Spitfires Forever]

Greetings All,

I am embarking on a P-47M build in 1/48 scale and was wondering what colors were really used. It seems that there is some controversy ( over aircraft colors? really? I can't believe that!) regarding what blues were used on the various aircraft flown by Lt. McBeth and Capt. Flagg. Any possible FS numbers or do I just trust it to luck? I don't think I have seen any color pics of these aircraft. Any input on this would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[Stonar]

You could do worse than asking here.

http://p47.kitmaker.net/

Nigel who runs the SIG does check in here on Britmodeller from time to time so you may be lucky.

Cheers

Steve

[occa]

There is a scene at 4:12 in this video with a damaged P-47 wing that I strongly suppose is in Azure Blue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shsxuauQA3w...feature=related

At least is looks like it's the case with the lighter color, the dark one could be insignia blue but I am not sure on the latter

I am aware tho that the vid is about the 362nd FG not the 56th ...

Edited December 1, 2011 by occa

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Mate, I dont think anyone has ever conclusively worked out the 2 shades of blue, so its pretty much still all conjecture.

Azure blue for the lighter blue and insignia blue for the darker blue are reasonable guesses, but then again the colours could have been mixed too

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=275507.15 - the darker blue looks darker than the insignia and the light blue looks like PRU blue ( but its scan of printed photo from a book, so not very reliable.

http://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/23221/Teddy_P-47M.jpg this one looks colourized anyway.

When I built mine a few years ago , I mixed blues until they looked right - and I went for a darker blue that was a bit lighter than insignia blue, and a lighter blue that was a bit greyer than azure.

Totally unscientific, but I though it looked like the photos I'd seen.

1 last thing the M used a cuffed prop of a similar design to the N, which is sublety different to the D model cuffed versions.

Cheers

Jonners

[Paul J]

One needs to be careful here. The pics on the links above show LM code P-47Ms and belonged to the 62nd FS. They had yellow serials and as seen here yellow codes, while their Ms were normally dark green /dark grey NMF unders, The 63rd FS were the unit who had the two tone blue P-47Ms coded UN-* with light blue serials and NMF codes sometimes outlined. True the photos look to be blue ones so they (the 62nd)could have had them transferred from the 63rd or, I think, quite likely the colour ageing in the photos.

The black(blue black) ones were operated by the 61st FS(HV-*) of the group and their codes were red outlined white and red serials. But all these 'multi coloured' Ms had bare metal undersides and leading edges to wings and tailplanes.

I have done one 1/72 and used azure blue and insignia blueand it looks OK.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Paul J

[Spitfires Forever]

You could do worse than asking here.

http://p47.kitmaker.net/

Nigel who runs the SIG does check in here on Britmodeller from time to time so you may be lucky.

Cheers

Steve

THanks mate, that is a great site but I think I will need to find a Detail and Scale book somewhere that may have color pictures. I am not going to sweat bullets over exact colors though, this thing ain't going into any museums any time soon, and if worse comes to worst I can always do the flat black scheme.

Cheers

[Spitfires Forever]

I have decals for both units and their subsequent color schemes. I was wondering though about the installation of the fin fillets which were supposed to be installed on older aircraft by mid 1945. This brings to question whether fillets had been installed on the older aircraft and we are assuming that all the filleted aircraft are indeed M models or not. I have always assumed that the 56th flew only M's that had fillets. It is a trifling point but still of interest. some aircraft could have been D-30's for all we know. Interesting thought nes pas?

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello Jon,

always good to get your input. I have seen many interpretations of the scheme that is why I am trying to nail this scheme down a little more before resigning myself to the blue-black over natural metal scheme, which is really quite nice, and a few flown by Polish lads. The other question that is a bit ancillary is the possible installation of the fin fillets that were supposedly installed by mid 1945. Could we be looking at some D-30's instead of M's, or were all of the 56th aircraft M's by April of 1945? Any thoughts?

[Paul J]

The easiest way of distiguishing Ds from Ms is by checking the serial /tail number in photos. All the Ms serials started 44-21**** The flamboyant colour schemes first appeared on the Ms too.

Also look at the 'little friends' website and the 56th section. Lots of good info etc there.

Evidently the first Ms to arrive the engines weren't inhibited for the sea crossing on delivery and this caused a number of prangs. So the group reverted to the D until the R2800s were fixed.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Paul J

[Paul J]

Oh, And all the M production went to the 56th.

[Stonar]

I have done one 1/72 and used azure blue and insignia blueand it looks OK.

And that seems to be the general concensus,along with a medium blue rudder. I doubt we'll ever know exactly what the original colours were.

David Gianokos from a thread over on Nigel's SIG:

" I am (or was) an associate member of the 56th FG Association, which has, unfortunately, folded its tent. I brought up this question with some crew chiefs from the 63rd FS, but no one really was certain exactly the colors that were painted on them. I think to them, the idea of exact colors that we go to excruciating detail to research as modelers just didn't make a big impact with them. They had a war on, and whatever they were ordered to paint the planes, they did, and that was it.

As far as Russ Kyler goes, he and his squadron didn't have much contact with the 63rd FS, as they were on different parts of the field at Boxted. I have three former 61st FS pilots who independently all say that their planes were plain black. But I don't think they could hazard a guess on the exact colors on the 63rd FS planes, other than that they were dark blue and light blue with medium blue rudders.

Perhaps we might still find someone (soon while they're still with us) who knows more about this than what I have been able to glean so far.

Dave"

Cheers

Steve

[greatgonzo]

1 last thing the M used a cuffed prop of a similar design to the N, which is sublety different to the D model cuffed versions.

It is not that simple. Right for the cuffs only. And not completely too.

It is a fair guess, considering the small number of the Ms produced, they all used the same symmetric paddleblade prop with trapezoidal cuffs. The N used at least two types of blades with same cuffs.

After the war some of the D's flew the same blades (including cuffs). As a matter of fact it is possible, although quite difficult, to find a late wartime D with the same blade arrangement.

These above were all CE propellers of course.

I have three former 61st FS pilots who independently all say that their planes were plain black.

May be true, but not necessary for all 61st Ms. Mike Dobrzelecki quotes John Shaaf, who during his visit to Mike Gladych foung out a wartime model of his HV-M. It was build by a fellow British pilot grounded for health reasons. Mike recalled the model was painted with the very same paint used on Pengie.

According to Shaaf the colour used to change depending on the angle of light balancing between black and dark blue. Gladych claimed the paint was supposed to match his favourite dinner jacket.

Pics here

http://www.plastikowe.pl/materialy-zrodlow...a-mike-gladycha

Oh, it is in English too

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/W...adych_P-47M.php

Edited December 1, 2011 by greatgonzo

[Seahawk]

Here's what Roger Freeman had to say on the subject on p.67 of Ducimus Camouflage and Markings 15:

"The 56th began to receive P-47Ms in January 1945 and for these distinctive squadron colour schemes was devised what much be the most flamboyant decor ever carried by Thunderbolts. This was additional to the official group and sqadron color markings which remained unchanged. Aircraft of the 61st FS had matt black upper surfaces, red code letters and red radio call-numbers. The 62nd FS had Dark Green and light grey (presmably Sea Grey) shadow shading similar to that of RAF fighters. Code letters and radio call numbers were in yellow. P-47Ms of the 63rd FS had dark and light blue shadow shading (apparently Dark Mediterranean Blue and Azure Blue shades), natural metal code letter and medium blue radio call numbers. The blue used for the call numbers and the squadron rudder colour was a true medium blue and contrasted sharply with the two camouflage colours. The undersides of all aircraft were left in the natral metal state as were cockpit canopy frames and the leading edges of wings and horizontal tailplanes. There were several P-47M late arrivals that did not receive these camoflage schemes and to which only normal unit markings were applied."

Note that the 4 shades with capitalised names (his, not mine) are RAF shades.

A caption to a photo of HV-Z of 61st FG points out the unauthorized pale blue outlining of the star and bar and the white outlining of the codes: both were common to all squadron aircraft with black camouflage finish.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Seahawk

[Nick Millman]

May be true, but not necessary for all 61st Ms. Mike Dobrzelecki quotes John Shaaf, who during his visit to Mike Gladych foung out a wartime model of his HV-M. It was build by a fellow British pilot grounded for health reasons. Mike recalled the model was painted with the very same paint used on Pengie.

According to Shaaf the colour used to change depending on the angle of light balancing between black and dark blue. Gladych claimed the paint was supposed to match his favourite dinner jacket.

Pics here

http://www.plastikowe.pl/materialy-zrodlow...a-mike-gladycha

Oh, it is in English too

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/W...adych_P-47M.php

Interesting. As RAF paint was apparently being used elsewhere within the Group it might have been Night.

[Stonar]

The what black was black debate is also without any conclusive resolution. I remember pictures of that model somewhere,maybe on the P-47 SIG.

When I did Lanowski's aircraft I went with black. There are an awful lot of the surviving veterans,and Roger Freeman,saying black. There is (this time certainly on the P-47 SIG) a colour photograph graciously supplied by Lt Col (ret) Vic Bast showing Herbert "Tex" Edwards of the 61st on a training flight in April 1945. Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

Cheers

Steve

Edited December 3, 2011 by Stonar

[bentwaters81tfw]

Go here too!

http://56thfightergroup.co.uk/

[Stonar]

Go here too!

http://56thfightergroup.co.uk/

Also run by Nigel Julian (Lampie) and very good it is too.

I've been musing over the likelihood of a bunch of groundcrew mixing up paint to match someone's dinner jacket's lining on a wartime airfield......I know what I think!

Cheers

Steve

Edited December 4, 2011 by Stonar

[Steven Eisenman]

Also run by Nigel Julian (Lampie) and very good it is too.

I've been musing over the likelihood of a bunch of groundcrew mixing up paint to match someone's dinner jacket on a wartime airfield......I know what I think!

Cheers

Steve

Given the extent of nose art and effort of a full crew to meet the needs of an Ace, adding a few drops of blue to black paint is child's play.

[Stonar]

Given the extent of nose art and effort of a full crew to meet the needs of an Ace, adding a few drops of blue to black paint is child's play.

If that matched this mythical dinner jacket! I wonder whether there wasn't a tongue firmly in a Polish cheek when this one started. Weren't the aircraft painted by the service squadrons,rather than their ground crews? I doubt they'd have painted the squadron in a selection of colours. When Nigel mentioned the dinner jacket story to Kyler he said the linings were all black, of the jackets that is,also that it was one of his favourite "stories"....back to square one.

I'm sticking with the surviving veterans,Freeman (who after all saw these aircraft first hand) and the available photographs.

There may have been a zebra in the pasture,but a donkey seems more likely.

We'll never know for sure.

Cheers

Steve

Edited December 4, 2011 by Stonar

[Troy Smith]

Given the extent of nose art and effort of a full crew to meet the needs of an Ace, adding a few drops of blue to black paint is child's play.

Probably no need to add some blue, as what Nick is getting at above, is that Night the paint colour IS black with an ultramarine hue, having ultramarine pigment in it.

I have not got time to have a hunt for details at the mo....but that what I recall reading...

So, Please, Mr Millman, enter stage right....

HTH

T

[Test Graham]

Not Nick, but I was thinking of saying the same myself. I don't recall anyone commenting that it ever looked blue, though.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Graham Boak

[Stonar]

I don't recall anyone commenting that it ever looked blue, though.

Because it looked black? Which might make 'Night' a good candidate for these Thunderbolts.

Steve

[lampie]

Interesting. As RAF paint was apparently being used elsewhere within the Group it might have been Night.

Something I have been musing over myself for a while now as well.

It's certainly a colour that would have been readily available and more probably easier to get hold of than any "black".

The inclusion of ultramarine in the paints makeup would give it a certain tinge in different lights, and it makes a lot more sense than all the "dinner jacket"/local car dealer etc etc theories that people are so fond of bringing up.

There are photographs which show the 61st FS M's with areas that have been repainted due to battle damage/repairs/addition of fin fillets and the more recently applied paint in these areas matches the main fusalage. ( This is on scans of original photographs at 1200dpi, you can see the brush marks in places).

Given that the aircraft were initially painted in the hangers at Boxted by 41st Service Squadron/33rd Service Group personnel, ( not by individual aircrafts ground crews), then the chances of a repaired and repainted area matching the original paint are minute.

It had to be a colour that came straight out of a tin, otherwise the difference would be extremely noticable.

There are a few surviving pieces of a 61stFS M which have remains of this paint intact, and while I have only seen photographs of them at this moment in time I am in the process of arranging to see them for myself and photograph them in natural light.

Maybe then the answer will reveal itself.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know the exact colours that the 63rd used.

Nige

http://p47.kitmaker.net/

http://56thfightergroup.co.uk/

[greatgonzo]

Well, if there was any II WW unit capable of painting an aircraft to match an ace's dinner jacket - 56th FG it is. I am not going to defend the idea, and the more not for all 61st P-47Ms - especially when the British Night path looks really good. But this story with Mike Gladych having his Jug painted like his favourite 'Anzug' was always on top of my private list. It just went with a person so well.

[Test Graham]

When I was younger, the story used to be that they were a deep purple, the colour of one pilot's favourite sports car. Now it is that they are blue-black, the colour of one pilot's favourite dinner jacket. What bar story willl we next adopt?

Sadly, being interesting and entertaining is not a great guide to what actually happened.