Hurricane I VY-C/G of 85 Sqn, Lille-Seclin, around Apr 1940

[Troy Smith]

Hi - just resurrecting this one, as Im about to decal.

looking at the 2nd pic in post 13 - I'm leaning towards no serial number visible. Opinions?

Overpainting of serials was common practice in France for security reasons. You see them post May 1940, as by then they had bigger problems!

T

[Brad Cancian]

Hi all - I know this is a very old thread, and apologies if there are newer more relevant ones out there... but I am thinking of building the newer Airfix 1/48 Mk1 in the markings of VY-G in homage to the older boxings, eg these markings:

 

 

I know very little about Hurricanes (I could point one out in a crowd), and could only find the below photograph of that aircraft:

 

 

Would this one have had a metal or fabric wing? Is this the same aircraft as the earlier one in this thread, or another one? 

 

I see some other aircraft in similar markings had what I think are metal wings?

 

 

Or is there simply not enough information to say one way or the other?

 

Thanks!

 

BC

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Brad

I have the same kit and I think the Hurricane in question had the metal wing. Will check my books for the serial number when I come home. Cheers

Jure

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Brad Cancian said:

Would this one have had a metal or fabric wing? Is this the same aircraft as the earlier one in this thread, or another one? 

Fabric. 

VY-G above is almost certainly the plane in two images below,   and the fabric wing is clear in the image below.    I don't know if the fabric areas on early Hurricanes faded faster, or just appears different in images, but you can clearly see the fabric outer section,  also note the worn paint on the metal behind the gun bay.

 

 

Same camo pattern,  exact same code letter style,  looks to be more faded,  the top pic is winter, or early 1940, the next two are after 10th May, hence yellow ring and fin flash, and has the De Havilland Spitfire spinner, which is was the first 3 blade unit fitted to Hurricanes, and is reasonably rare, same windscreen, the standard armoured type, and the standard aerial, unusual at the time,  most Hurricane of similar features have the pole aerial  (as seen on VY-H)  These are an unusual combination, and that the above look to C rather than G maybe just be a replacement panel or dirt... unless VY-C had the exact same features, then all the above are VY-G.  

PS 

from 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235052863-airfix-172-hurricane-i/

"

...but on blowing the image up I'm 99.9% certain I can see the downward stroke of the G..."

""

 

 

Wingleader suggest this also has a red spinner,  note the camera filter has made this a very light red in this pic, while looking slightly lighter than the back bit in the first photo.

 

Just to stress, the Hurricane Mk.I in DETAIL is far more complex than usually understood,   example, without a a factory record of what wing was fitted, you won't know without a clear photo. 

7 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

I have the same kit and I think the Hurricane in question had the metal wing. Will check my books for the serial number when I come home. Cheers

Jure

serial painted out for security in France, and AFAIK is not known. 

From what I can see of the airframe, I'd suggest a very late L or an N serial, but that does not narrow it down much....  

 

Been a busy old Hurricane day today....

Edited November 21, 2022 by Troy Smith
added a PS

[Brad Cancian]

Thanks gents! VY-G is a non-starter then. What about the other aircraft, VY-H? That looks like it may have a metal wing?

 

Cheers,

 

Brad

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Brad Cancian said:

What about the other aircraft, VY-H? That looks like it may have a metal wing?

 

From peering at the image,  and playing with it a graphics program may help(which I don't have on here) , it looks to have the hexagonal wing hatches, so is metal winged. 

Looks like it may have the 4 spoke wheel hubs,  which  seem to have come in with P**** serial.  Has a DH Hurricane prop.    A better resolution image would maybe answer these questions.

This is winter or early spring 1940,  from a phoney war photo shoot, so an early Gloster Hurricane is perfectly feasible, and the above features fit this.. 

 

Your model, your choice.  

 

PS..... and I went to se if I could find a better res pic...  It is of course an IWM image

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207561

using the zoom facility,  I see metal wing, 4 spoke wheel and just visible, an 8 inch serial,  x253? x255? 

Anyway, this fits exactly with an early Gloster  ....since I was wittering, I did just that, here's a zoom screen grab, tweaked with Flickr to bring it out a bit.

Hurricane VY-H 85 sq zoom crop by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Hot damn. I didn't bother with the wing, (it's metal)  as this has the main bits, the 8 inch serial, and confirms the starboard 2nd access hatch, the dark rectangle in the H.   This is really useful, as it confirms this on early, perhaps from the start of the Gloster run of this hatch.

 

Air Britain has these for 85 that fit with P253x or P255x 

P2535

P2538

P2547

P2551

P2552

P2555 (43/85) 

P2563

 

since the last digit is obscured by the code letter...  

 

 

 

HTH

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

I stand corrected. There is not much one can add to Troy's comprehensive post except perhaps that VY-G's landing light on Phoney war photo seems to be situated close to port MLG leg, which of course is consistent with fabric covered wing. I checked 85 Squadron's ORB for serial numbers, but unfortunately in that period it only contains individual aircraft letters. Cheers

Jure

[Brad Cancian]

Brilliant information, thanks Troy!

 

Cheers,

 

BC

[Troy Smith]

On 21/11/2022 at 21:52, Troy Smith said:

Air Britain has these for 85 that fit with P253x or P255x 

P2535

P2538

P2547

P2551

P2552

P2555 (43/85) 

P2563

 

since the last digit is obscured by the code letter...  

 

According to FB Battle Of France group admin, VY-H was P2551

"I have VY-H recorded as P2551, lost on the 19th May......the original VY-H (N series) being repaired and participated in the BoB albeit with a different Squadron (yet another Hurricane 'not' abandoned in France...!!!!). Admin."

 

and I suspect this is the final fate of VY-G

 

Note, al the same details, fabric wing, DH Spitfire spinner, in non black, likely red,  standard windscreen, standard aerial, same camo pattern, same fin stripes.   In particular the Dh Spitfire spinner is quite a rare item.    

A chalked on Hexagon would explain the wonky one below, and lack above. 

 

 

Ongoing discussion as to possible serial as well.

 

Hope of interest.

T

 

[PatG]

The pic of VY-G under inspection by the Luftwaffe seems to have a gas detection patch outboard of the starboard roundel possibly?

 

Pat.

[Icedtea]

On 11/24/2011 at 4:35 AM, Work In Progress said:

If you look at that hexagon on the fin, it ain't very hexagonal. Might be just something stuck on with tape or quickly painted on because they know the press photographer was coming round. Or even chalked on.

And if my faulty old memory serves its the wrong way round? I think I read somewhere that the actual hex had a 'pointy' bit at the top. Now what did I come in here for.....

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Icedtea said:

And if my faulty old memory serves its the wrong way round? I think I read somewhere that the actual hex had a 'pointy' bit at the top. Now what did I come in here for.....

  As noted by @Paul J

On 30/05/2014 at 09:35, Paul J said:

Just as an aside and many here will already probably know, the 85 hexagon was painted resting on a flat side for one of the flights [A or B ] and resting on a point of the shape for the other flight. The thing is I don't recall which flight A or B had which hexagon.

Also during this time/period, the camo patterns were also according to flight. A pattern and B pattern.

pointy end below,  and flat end on VY-G and VY-H above.

]]

 

It should be possible to ascertain which flight used which, but will have to ask elsewhere. 

[Graham Boak]

Early alphabet letters for A Flight, later ones for B.  Not a universal rule among squadrons, but very nearly.  Once things got fraught, then whichever Flight was on readiness would use whichever aircraft were available.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Quote

Or on fabric wings, the early airframes have a inner fabric panel at the rear wing root, later metal, even on a fabric wing.

Just read the above in the Rumourmonger section, about possible future ARMA versions.

I wasn't aware of the possibility of an inner metal panel on a fabric wing, the (older) Bentley plans does not mention this. Is there anything known of how common this was? It would be nice to get this right on VY-G, even if it means some extra putty work on the CA upper wing. 

 

I am indeed intrigued by the paint on VY-G. Paul Lukas noted the fact that the outer fabric portion of the upper wings on VY-G were painted in lighter colours than the rest of the aircraft. This can be seen also on OP-R/L1940 in the wartime colour pic.

(This interesting colour detail is why I became interested in modelling VY-G in the first place) 

Edited June 13 by Tomas Enerdal

[Graham Boak]

It was pretty standard - imagine the mechanic standing on the wing root to help the pilot fasten his gear.  There can't have been many where this was fabric.

[Troy Smith]

36 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

wasn't aware of the possibility of an inner metal panel on a fabric wing, the (older) Bentley plans does not mention this. Is there anything known of how common this was? It would be nice to get this right on VY-G, even if it means some extra putty work on the CA upper wing. 

The fabric inner panel was on early production only, with the introduction of metal wings I think this panel became metalso likely in the L**** serial run. Bear in mind the outer wing joins outside of the UC so later fabric wing have metal inners, and a rewinged early airframe.could have retained fabric...

If you look at the shot of VY-G from port rear on zoom the inner wing panel is metal,  as its not faded.

36 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

am indeed intrigued by the paint on VY-G. Paul Lukas noted the fact that the outer fabric portion of the upper wings on VY-G were painted in lighter colours than the rest of the aircraft. This can be seen also on OP-R/L1940 in the wartime colour pic.

Its not painted another colour. Wjy would it be?

For some reason the fabric areas paint either faded faster, or being a bit more of a matt finish, so photographs lighter, or use of different paint fot metal and fabric along with the points above. This has been observed on early Hurricanes, it not seen later to the same extent.

 

[Dave Swindell]

36 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

 

I am indeed intrigued by the paint on VY-G. Paul Lukas noted the fact that the outer fabric portion of the upper wings on VY-G were painted in lighter colours than the rest of the aircraft.

You may want to check the wording used by @Paul Lucas, as I very much doubt that the outer wings were painted different colours to the rest of the aircraft, the specified colours would have been the same MAP Dark Green/Dark Earth. However the paint specification would be different depending on whether the substrate was fabric or metal, which could give a differencein finish that could appear as a different shade, and also give different weathering rates which would give the appearance of different shades over time. A minor, but very important point when trying to determine the colours the original was painted vs how to represent that on a model.

[Graham Boak]

Just to back this up in principle: the moving control surfaces were usually fabric covered to save weight (reducing the chance of destructive flutter) and these are commonly seen as lighter in tone than the adjacent metal.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thanks all for the quick responses and wise answers.

Yes, I've been thinking along these lines myself. Definitely different DTD paints/substrates for dopes and lacquers. Probably also varying weathering properties, the upper wing contrast seems so much greater than the contrast on the fuselage flank. I even think I can detect a small contrast between the browns on fin and rudder in the pic of VY-G above (before may, without yellow roundel ring or fin stripe). If I can handle the painting stage properly, the end result will become very interesting!

Some more puttying.. It will be very thin styrene and Miliput, nothing else will be hard enough for sanding. Thankfully enough the wing parts have not been assembled yet.

 

[Graham Boak]

Fading would be quicker on the wing, because it is more often in direct sunlight - the fuselage being in shadow at least 50% of the time, and usually less direct sunlight anyway on a vertical surface.  There's a thread running on lighter blue paint for overwing roundels - no, just that fading again.

[Tomas Enerdal]

Indeed. Remember the Model Design Construction special decal sheet with faded B-roundels? MDCDEC 48-003, idea first introduced with their resin Swordfish all those years ago.

I bought several sheets at the time, still have most of them left (I'm a slow builder).

[Tomas Enerdal]

(Just saw a pic in the old Camouflage & Markings No.3, Hurricane. On p.56 there is a pic of LR-R of 56(F) Sq. Captioned as L1909. B-roundels on fuselage. The inner wing rear panel is considerably lighter than the adjacent metal panels, so is partly fabric covered.)

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

The inner wing rear panel is considerably lighter than the adjacent metal panels, so is partly fabric covered

Like many Hurricane detail questions, I don't know there is a definitive answer.  My suspicion the wing root panel skinning changed when the metal wing was introduced, so part way through the L**** series.

Hmm. Need to check an image.

 

L2047.  Not that clear but looks to be metal.  I'll need to do the zoom facility on the IWM site and see.

Ps - doh!

I can't really see a fabric panel on this one.