Hurricane I VY-C/G of 85 Sqn, Lille-Seclin, around Apr 1940

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Chaps Lynn Ritger posted this on HS from a Time image, and notes,

"What's interesting to me is the use of the Squadron "hexagon" marking on the fin, even though the fin flash is now in use. Not sure I've ever seen that before... although I'm certain one of our UK chaps will chime in to remind me this is a photo which every British lad is shown at birth or something.

The far outboard gas patch seems unique as well- weren't those usually applied closer to the cockpit? "

Cheers

Jonners

[edit - now with the pic!]

Edited November 23, 2011 by Jon Kunac-Tabinor

[Test Graham]

Must be May, with the fin flash.

Dunno about shown at birth, but I think there's a much poorer pic in Bowyer's Fighting Colours, which all true British modellers should have been given as a christening present......

[Work In Progress]

If you look at that hexagon on the fin, it ain't very hexagonal. Might be just something stuck on with tape or quickly painted on because they know the press photographer was coming round. Or even chalked on.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Work In Progress

[Potato Pete]

And here's a pic of Albert Lewis's Hurricane, also 85 Sqdn, showing the outboard gas patch on both wings, but no sign of a hexagon on this or other pics from the series. The fin had the broad red stripe

In fact I think you can see it on the starboard wing in the pic Lynn posted, or it is just the dk earth camouflage?

Pete

Edited November 23, 2011 by Potato Pete

[AWFK10]

It's in 'Fighter Squadrons of the RAF', and a cropped version is in the old Airfix 'Classic Aircraft' book on the Hurricane. In the Osprey 'Aircraft of the Aces' book (I only have the abridged one, 'Hurricanes to the Fore', but I expect it's in the full length 1939-40 volume as well) there's another view of the same aircraft taken from the starboard side. It appears to be VY-C rather than VY-G but it's hard to be sure. The tail is out of the shot, so the serial (if applied) is invisible.

The same book also has a fairly well-known photo of 3 85 Sqn Hurricanes on parade at Lille-Seclin in December 1939, with a much larger hexagon marking centred on the fin. It looks as if VY-C's was reapplied in a smaller size when the fin stripes were added - which supports WiP's suggestion.

[brewerjerry]

If you look at that hexagon on the fin, it ain't very hexagonal. Might be just something stuck on with tape or quickly painted on because they know the press photographer was coming round. Or even chalked on.

Hi

Chalked on could be the right one.

I was told sometime back that there was sort of a ruling that for the majoriy of normal ranks, nothing could be painted on RAF aircraft apart from official markings.

Apparently chalking was used as a way around this ruling, as it was not painting, and it could be rapidly removed, before any inspection.

Cheers

jerry

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Would I be right in assuming that the fin flash goes all the way down too ( ie long and thin?)

The Haexagon does look a bit like its chalked on or made from tape as WIP posted. "That man there, 6 sided geometric marking, squadron marking for the use of, reduced size, non-permanent, photographers for the picture taking of. Now laddy, now , not next week"

This scheme is going to be on my Italeri Hurricane - I have the VY codes from the Airfix model - which as been marked for a USAAC Whif build as a Hawker P-34A !

Cheers

Jonners

[Edgar]

The hexagon was probably there first, since the order, for the fin flashes, was sent out on May 1st., with the yellow surround to the fuselage roundel about two weeks later. The position of the gas patch could be explained by a need to keep it away from the gunbay; it was just a sheet of paper, after all.

Edgar

[Troy Smith]

Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Would I be right in assuming that the fin flash goes all the way down too ( ie long and thin?)

The Haexagon does look a bit like its chalked on or made from tape as WIP posted. "That man there, 6 sided geometric marking, squadron marking for the use of, reduced size, non-permanent, photographers for the picture taking of. Now laddy, now , not next week"

This scheme is going to be on my Italeri Hurricane - I have the VY codes from the Airfix model - which as been marked for a USAAC Whif build as a Hawker P-34A !

Cheers

Jonners

I suggest not Jonners unless you want a lot of work....

one crucial detail, this plane has fabric wings.

 

relinked from IWM

ROYAL AIR FORCE: FRANCE, 1939-1940.. © IWM (C 1518)IWM Non Commercial Licence

note the paler colour outboard of the gunbays, [and where the chipped paint ends], which matches the fabric fuselage. note the colour of the metal nose.

This is taken post May 1940 when the yellow outer ring and fin stripes were introduced.

Also, Italeri have cocked up their de havilland spinner, making the base diameter too big, so you'd need a new spinner.

I first saw the above pic in 'Famous Aircraft, history and how to model them no.4 - Hurricane' book and suspect this is the famous VY-G of a few pics in the phoney war. [and of the Airfix kit]

HTH

T

Edited July 5, 2017 by Troy Smith
broken PB link

[Test Graham]

Hi

Chalked on could be the right one.

I was told sometime back that there was sort of a ruling that for the majoriy of normal ranks, nothing could be painted on RAF aircraft apart from official markings.

Apparently chalking was used as a way around this ruling, as it was not painting, and it could be rapidly removed, before any inspection.

Cheers

jerry

Perhaps so, but the 601 Sq flying sword was painted on the white of the fin flash, and I've also seen a picture of 607's winged lion similarly placed. Squadrons had ways of ignoring or just getting around rulings thought to affect their esprit de corps. Later in the war it became more common (although never normal) to carry squadron colours/insignia but I think 85 is the earliest example.

[mhaselden]

Here's another of the pics Lynn posted:

It's interesting, to me at least, because of the light-toned spinner (Sky...or is it yellow). Not seen that before on Hurri's deployed to France. Also, the ring around the fuselage roundel looks very bright. I know they were freshly painted but it looks white and not yellow.

KR

Mark

Edited November 23, 2011 by mhaselden

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Oh Buggering bugger - Guys are we sure its a fabric wing? Could that not be just some trick of the light?

Jonners, sagging a little

[Troy Smith]

Trying to find the pic I meant of VY-G,

this one. Earlier in 1940, the hexagon was standard on the fin, there are more pics from this sequence, there are more, eg VY-H, here http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?filter[agentString][0]=%22Royal%20Air%20Force%2C%2085%20Squadron%22&query=

found this on the IWM site

from the same roll of film I's say.

and maybe the same plane?Of noet is the light coloured spinner. Possibly yellow as 85 may well have used flight coloured spinners [there are other pics of this, on the IWM site too]

I'd suggest they are the same day, or around the same day, because of this

Sergeant G "Sammy" Allard of No. 85 Squadron RAF being congratulated on his return to Lille-Seclin in France on the evening of 10 May 1940, after shooting down the second of two Heinkel He 111s claimed by him that day. Behind him, ground crew are busy refuelling and rearming his Hawker Hurricane Mark I, N2319 'VY-P'.

this one might do Jonners, got a serial, code known, and decent pic, and looks to be meatl winged, note shape of gun access cover.

cheers

T

[Troy Smith]

Oh Buggering bugger - Guys are we sure its a fabric wing? Could that not be just some trick of the light?

Jonners, sagging a little

Jonners....hope you like suggested replacement.

But I don't think it's a trick of the light, not it's clear and bright, well lit, and compare metal with fabric bits.

Mark, the yellow ring is very bright, painted onto quiet a worn plane. remember 85 had been in france since 39, and it was the phoney war. Plenty of time to get a bit grubby.

Edit - Re - sky spinner, Sky was not introduced until june 1940... this is may 1940.

Cheers

T

Edited November 23, 2011 by Troy Smith

[Troy Smith]

Flight coloured spinners [possibly]

Castle Camps july 1940. After sky introduced.


the famous VY-R, with red [?] striped spinner

RAF FIGHTER COMMAND 1940. © IWM (HU 104483)IWM Non Commercial Licence


THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN. © IWM (HU 54416)IWM Non Commercial Licence
better shot of other side.
Note also high nose 'sky' demarcation suggesting in field repaint. the spinner could be red, could be blue. I'd love to know.

 

a couple more here of VY-R, head on, and in flight.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234948380-hurricane-colour-question/

EDIT

VY-K of Geoffrey Allard, one of 3 pics of this plane, but note the two Hurricanes in the background, and compare spinner colours.

if the colours of the fin flas are used as guide

left to right yellow - red - blue ?

Quote

Squadron Leader Peter Townsend, CO of No.85 Squadron, seated in Hurricane Mk I P3166, VY-Q, at Castle Camps, July 1940. A bowser has drawn up to refuel the aircraft.This aircraft was shot down on 31 August 1940 by a Messerschmitt Bf 110 over Tunbridge Wells. Townsend baled out, but was wounded in the foot.

 

by August 1940 the spinners are black as per regs.[this pic taken Oct 1940, part of a series]


note the different size of underwing roundels as well.

 

Smaller thought to be infield as easier to paint, larger as per regs from factory or M.U. from what I have read on here. same variation also seen on BoB Spitfire BTW.

cheers
T

edit to repair pic links and add detail.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Thanks Troy - I think VY-P will make a great subject.

so we'll have tall fin flash with small hexagon, narrow yellow outer ring to fuselage roundels, yellow DH prop spinner, and early style radio mast, plus a generally lived in appearance.

Cool

Cheers for the help

Jonners

[tonyot]

Jonners,

When doing VY-P be careful of the windscreen as it looks to be the early style with the external armour plate, you can usually tell which is which as the later, more standard windscreen had a strengthening frame line along the side of the windscreen at the top, whilst with the earlier windscreen these frame lines were not present, or in the case of VY-P they carry on straight up to the top of the windscreen. Another thing to check with these early Hurri Mk.I`s is the radio antenna mast as some, like VY-P had a simple pole device and others the later standard which we are all used to. Strangely VY-C has fabric wings but has the later style windscreen and antenna mast......I only know this because I wanted to build my 1/32nd scale PCM fabric winged Hurri in these markings but had to choose another one as the kit only had the earlier windscreen!! I`ve seen a photo of another 85 Sqn Hurri with an Indians Head insignia under the cockpit too and tried to find out which aircraft it was...to no avail!

All the best

Tony O

Edited November 24, 2011 by tonyot

[Troy Smith]

Thanks Troy - I think VY-P will make a great subject.

so we'll have tall fin flash with small hexagon, narrow yellow outer ring to fuselage roundels, yellow DH prop spinner, and early style radio mast, plus a generally lived in appearance.

Cool

Cheers for the help

Jonners

Hi Jonners

good points from Tony.

A check of my old Hurricane book [perhaps Graham could check his more up to date references] shows N2319 to be the 2nd aircraft of the 2nd Hawker production batch in 1939 of 300 [First batch is 'L' serials, 600 planes] the first 80 or so had fabric wings.

Now, from what I can see that looks like the rear part of the hexagon gun access panel, so metal wing.

Fabric wing Hurricanes were re-winged when repaired, so this I would presume that this is the case here, and hence earlier features.

So possibly not so worn looking, might have been resprayed after re-winging? Looks pretty clean from the pic.

Aeroclub used to do an early hurricane canopy, and you may have a spare leftover from the Classic Airframes kit? [which had two of each]

The serial looks smaller than the standard 8" type, but maybe just be a different style.

In case you have not bookmarked it, the Science Musuem plane.

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hay...cane_mk1_l1592/

The Finnish Hurricane is N2394, so I would suggest is very similar to N2319, so will have 5 spoke wheels....Ultracast do some, now available from 3-D models.

[italeri have provided 4 and 3 spoke wheel for some reason!! Ihave never seen a 3 spoked wheel on a hurricane]

internal pics of N2394 http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...st&p=742480

Aluminium framework and inside wing and cowling.

here are links to walkrounds of the Finnish plane, unrestored since 1943. I don't know if the exhausts are Finnish in origin [exhausts burn out so may well be locally made replacement]

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_1536/

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_1295/

http://www.trerc.fi/galleria/suomen_ilmailumuseo/index.html

I know I have posted these before, but no harm reminding folk of good reference.

And, the Italeri hurricane, a few other points. These may be 'nit-picking' and none are a 'deal breaker', and most are easily correctable but I think worth mentioning.

The DH spinner is wrong. This is a replacement job.

The Spitfire type is in the Airfix kit, the smaller Hurricane type is done by hasegawa. As a small shadow is visible on the nose this may well be the spitfire type DH.

The gun ejector slots are a bit off, well, one is, as they are spaced evenly on the Italeri kit, but not on the real thing.

I think the gun ports on the leading edge are just a fraction too high, meaning they look too oval. It's really a very small, but compare to the Finnish pics, like this http://www.pienoismallit.net/media/kuvat/01/10/75/011075.jpg.

Probably a right pain to correct.

The landing light sides are at right angles to the ground, they should be at right angles to the wing.

There are a load of 'fantasy' rivets on the wing, ironically there are pics of the wing in the booklet showing the real wing.....

Hope of use.....I know, i need to get out more...better get my anorak

cheers

T

[Potato Pete]

Troy,

In the pic you posted of VY*R on the ground, the underside rear fuselage looks very dark. All other pics I've seen of it look like Sky. Do you think it's just shadow we're seeing?

Pete

[Troy Smith]

Troy,

In the pic you posted of VY*R on the ground, the underside rear fuselage looks very dark. All other pics I've seen of it look like Sky. Do you think it's just shadow we're seeing?

Pete

Pete

I'd say mud. it's a grass strip.

Look at the gear doors and under the bottom of the fuselage.

cheers

T

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Troy - you are a mine of info - you have my thanks- just the sought of stuff I like to try and get right on a model.

Ta lad.

Jonners

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi - just resurrecting this one, as Im about to decal.

looking at the 2nd pic in post 13 - I'm leaning towards no serial number visible. Opinions?

Jonners

[edited for clarity of which pic I'm referring to]

[Paul J]

Just as an aside and many here will already probably know, the 85 hexagon was painted resting on a flat side for one of the flights [A or B ] and resting on a point of the shape for the other flight. The thing is I don't recall which flight A or B had which hexagon.

Also during this time/period, the camo patterns were also according to flight. A pattern and B pattern.

[Test Graham]

Ye gods well spotted - but it's difficult to see how this pattern variation could have been maintained as they'd no control on the serials of arriving replacements.

[Paul J]