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Spitfire I, 2-blade prop, markings question


jRatz

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I really like the pre-war and early war markings, but have mostly been a Hurricane guy.

Now I want to do a Spitfire Mk.I with the 2-blade prop and black/white undersides. I understand there were 77 made, serials K9787-9863, before they switched to 3-blade. I'm pretty familiar with the progression of markings in that period.

I think a 19 Sqn machine will fit the bill. I think I have enough info in Camouflage & Markings #1 to fake it but I am looking for any links/pointers to photos, etc, of their aircraft that might provide additional info.

Thanks in advance,

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The order for the black/white undersides came at the same time as the change to red/blue roundels on camouflaged surfaces (i.e top and sides,) and that was 27-4-39. Underwing serials were deleted from 30-11-39. Fabric gun muzzle covers weren't introduced until July-Sept. 1940, so l/e holes might well have been in evidence. The pitot tube was, most probably, a twin-prong style, as can be seen on a photo of K9906, when it was with 65 Squadron. In 1938, 65 Squadron's Spitfires did not have protruding muzzles, so I would expect 19's to be the same. The Spitfire 1, and 1a, were the same aircraft; the 1a designation didn't come until the cannon-armed B wing was planned, and a difference in designation was needed. The main, expedient, reason that ailerons, and elevators were left in original silver was because any additional paint would necessitate that the item needed to be rebalanced. Spitfires weren't based in France, but they did fly, and fight, from English airfields during the Dunkirk evacuation. All early a/c had metal seats, so were the same colour as the rest of the interior, i.e Humbrol 90. Armour, behind the seat and on the headrest, was not fitted before early 1940. I'm trying to find the definitive answer, but I believe that the thigh-straps, of the Sutton Harness, were fitted to the inside of the corners of the seat, and therefore came over the pilot's hips. Metal seats had no hole in the backrest, so don't try fitting the "Y" section of the harness through one. I know that I'm becoming a right PITA, over this, but NO CROWBAR!

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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Couple of things I forgot; it would, obviously, have had the push me/pull you u/c retraction, and the radio would have been the TR9D, so needed the old style controller, not the push-button set for the VHF radio. Apparently it was possible to tune the early sets to the BBC; one pilot got quite narked when he got VHF, and couldn't listen to Henry Hall any more.

Edgar

And more (sorry;) the rudder pedals only had a single bar, with the leather toestraps. The second bar wasn't introduced until July, 1940. Rear-view mirrors weren't standard fit until the same time in 1940. If you're planning to have the engine on display, there were large lumps of lead added to the foremost points of the engine bearers; this was to compensate for the two-blade prop being lighter than the planned three-blader. Airfix have them on their 1/24th kit, unfortunately together with a three-blade prop.

Edited by Edgar
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Guys,

Thanks for all the detail, I'll consider it when I start building.

The pix offered are earlier than I am interested in.

Here is what I have, taken from Camo & Markings #1. The blue-red roundels are visible, as are squadron codes in one of the numerous variations of style common to the period. I am unable to determine if underwing serials still exist from the photos -- I would say no from the one clear underwing shot. The lower photo indicates the black/white evenly split the fuselage. Any more info about the camo & markings of these aircraft would be of interest.

19sqn.jpg

There is a picture on pg 23 of Robertson's Spitfire Story of a Famous Fighter, which shows 65 Sqn a/c in flight -- the foremost a/c appears to have the 2-blade prop (while all the rest have 3-blade), carries codes FZ-L and is apparently Sqn Ldr Tuck's aircraft. It also is a possibility but I do not know the underside colors ...

BTW, the Spitfire had a Weybridge prop, not Watts ...

John

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The codes WZ-? ring a bell...more research needed about that one because 66Sqn were also at Duxford and were 2nd to 19Sqn to receive the Spitfire, maybe this was their i.d code?

The early rudder pedals were made of stainless steel and had SUPERMARINE in italics embossed into them (very neatly manufactured!) that would look good in 1:48 albeit very fiddly...

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66 Squadron's codes were RB, until war's outbreak, then LZ. 65 carried FZ from September 1938, until September 1939, when they were changed to YT. 19 Squadron carried WZ prewar, then QV from September 1939. During the war WZ was allocated to the USAAF 84FS, 78FG ("Big Beautiful Doll" was WZ-I)

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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66 Squadron's codes were RB, until war's outbreak, then LZ. 65 carried FZ from September 1938, until September 1939, when they were changed to YT. 19 Squadron carried WZ prewar, then QV from September 1939. During the war WZ was allocated to the USAAF 84FS, 78FG ("Big Beautiful Doll" was WZ-I)

Edgar

Although not clearly visible, the 2nd a/c in the upper photo appears to show part of a "Z" and so I assume these were WZ coded.

Not all of them had roundels on the upper wings either :)

Could you clarify this in particular if it applies the the 19 Sqn aircraft of interest?

It is contrary to what I understand.

Thanks,

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Although not clearly visible, the 2nd a/c in the upper photo appears to show part of a "Z" and so I assume these were WZ coded.

Could you clarify this in particular if it applies the the 19 Sqn aircraft of interest?

It is contrary to what I understand.

Thanks,

First off, my apologies for taking so long to reply John, but it was your fault....... :tapedshut: I plugged in the good old scanner to scan these for you and screwed up the keyboard registry entries which has taken to today to sort. :undecided:

Aircraft Illustrated October 2008 edition has some pictures as part of their Spitfire Special and it shows some without, not sure about the upper ones as that could just be light, but the second from the bottom as far as I can tell has NONE, it was possibly rushed into service to allow the photo to be done prior to having them installed....... It would of probably had that corrected shortly afterwards... It happens, when we had our Squadron Photgraph taken in West Germany as it was then, we were missing a Jet that was on a Major service, so we "borrowed" one from another squadron and changed the Squadron codes with Masking tape to make it appear as our missing jet! I have left them a bit big so you can see the detail.....

http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core..._serialNumber=1

http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core..._serialNumber=1

Edited by TonyT
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The photo was, probably, taken on a specially-arranged press day 4-5-39, only 7 days after the change to red/blue roundels, ordered on 27-4-39. It's entirely possible that the anomaly was caused by this, with some old roundels having been painted out, prior to the new ones being applied; note that the "oddball" a/c are all in the same "B" scheme, with the "A" scheme a/c all OK.

Edgar

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TonyT,

Thanks for those photos -- the 2nd one ties to the ones I posted and gives me a better idea of the 19 Sqn schemes.

And you are correct WZ*L has no upper wing roundels !!!

Thank you, and Edgar also, for helping me out ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Answering my own question, I just got Caygill's Combat Legends Spitfire I-V with another good picture of 19 Sqn Mk1's, it looks like I'm on my way -- even have canopy choices ...

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Answering my own question, I just got Caygill's Combat Legends Spitfire I-V with another good picture of 19 Sqn Mk1's, it looks like I'm on my way -- even have canopy choices ...

It sounds like you have everything you need but I thought these might also be useful?

Spitfire001.jpg

Spitfire002.jpg

Spitfire003.jpg

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timbo33

Thanks !! The 19 Sqn lineup is yet another view of the ones I had (or very similar) and very useful.

What book is that ?

Edited by JohnRatzenberger
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timbo33

Thanks !! The 19 Sqn lineup is yet another view of the ones I had (or very similar) and very useful.

What book is that ?

Hi John, glad it was helpful - this is the book:

Spitfire004.jpg

Available here:

Osprey Publishing Website

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