English Electric Lightning

[bunnylurve]

Having trawled this site for some time, I have come to the (bleedin' obvious) conlusion that EE Lightnings are a bit of a favourite with the BM crowd. Now, i must confess that i knew nowt about this aircraft apart from the fact they were unpainted! So keen to know more, i did a search of wikipedia and found some performance facts that simply took my breath away! Since i'm no good with the linky stuff, here's a likkle quote:

"In 1984, during a major NATO exercise, Flt Lt Mike Hale intercepted an American U-2 at a height which they had previously considered safe from interception. Records show that Hale climbed to 88,000 ft (26,800 m) in his Lightning F3 XR749. Hale also participated in time-to-height and acceleration trials against F-104 Starfighters from Aalborg. He reports that the Lightnings won all races easily with the exception of the low level supersonic acceleration, which was a "dead heat".

Carroll reports in a side-by-side comparison of the Lightning and the F-15C Eagle (which he also flew) that "acceleration in both was impressive, you have all seen the Lightning leap away once brakes are released, the Eagle was almost as good, and climb speed was rapidly achieved. Takeoff roll is between 2,000 & 3,000 ft [600 to 900 m], depending upon military or maximum afterburner-powered takeoff. The Lightning was quicker off the ground, reaching 50 ft [15 m] height in a horizontal distance of 1,630 feet [500m]".

But what really amazed me was this:

"In British Airways trials in April 1985, Concorde was offered as a target to NATO fighters including F-15s, F-16s, F-14s, Mirages, F-104s - but only Lightning XR749, flown by Mike Hale and described by him as "a very hot ship, even for a Lightning", managed to overtake Concorde on a stern conversion intercept"

Outclassing an F-15- how bloody cool is that?!

I s'pose most of you already knew this stuff, but i was sooo excited i thought i'd share it with you lovely BM folk again!!

The saddest part is, thanks to the CAA (nasty b*ggers) it doesn't look like we'll ever get to see one fly again in the UK.

Easy now,

Da Bun.

[Seamus]

Some pretty impressive stats there, goes to show what a quality interceptor the lightning really was.

I'd like to point out though that it's not the CAA who are solely responsible for the Lightnings never flying in the UK again. Firstly, to achieve such a thing would require engineering support from BAE Systems or a similar company, which won't happen due to the immense cost of such a project. Secondly, there aren't enough spares or zero-houred parts around to restore an airframe that would have a sufficiently long display life. Thirdly, the Lightning has a pretty poor safety record and as such the insurance costs would be far too high. There are a number of other reasons which sadly prevent it from happening. Don't get me wrong, 'tis a damn shame- I never even got to see a Lightning - but realistically it can't happen.

Indeed if it was possible, the CAA would be more than happy to allow it to fly provided it attained their requirements in the complex aircraft category.

[bunnylurve]

Some pretty impressive stats there, goes to show what a quality interceptor the lightning really was.

I'd like to point out though that it's not the CAA who are solely responsible for the Lightnings never flying in the UK again. Firstly, to achieve such a thing would require engineering support from BAE Systems or a similar company, which won't happen due to the immense cost of such a project. Secondly, there aren't enough spares or zero-houred parts around to restore an airframe that would have a sufficiently long display life. Thirdly, the Lightning has a pretty poor safety record and as such the insurance costs would be far too high. There are a number of other reasons which sadly prevent it from happening. Don't get me wrong, 'tis a damn shame- I never even got to see a Lightning - but realistically it can't happen.

Indeed if it was possible, the CAA would be more than happy to allow it to fly provided it attained their requirements in the complex aircraft category.

Hi Seamus,

Thanks for enlightning me

It's just a shame that South Africa manage to keep example(s) flying and we don't. Though i know nothing of SA health and safety legislation!

[MikeC]

Great for a point-defence interceptor, pity about the fuel capacity.

The take-off roll - safety height - vertical climb whilst still accelerating routine at airshows never failed to impress.

[dylan the rabbit]

Hi Seamus,

Thanks for enlightning me

It's just a shame that South Africa manage to keep example(s) flying and we don't. Though i know nothing of SA health and safety legislation!

Who cares!

If you have the cash, why not?

[bentwaters81tfw]

If I had the cash.....sadly I'm too tall to fit with the canopy closed.

Yes many of us are all to aware of just how good the Lightning is. Then you have to remember it was first designed in 1947. It would have flown sooner than 1954 if it wasn't for the Ministry of Supply not believing in the design and ordering the Shorts SB5 to prove the concept.

Yes, the Lightning did have a poor safety record; a third of production airframes were lost, usually to fire. The faults were eventually ironed out.

As for spares? What about the criminal waste of the airframes returned from Saudi? There is/was NO excuse for not having an airworthy example over here. Don't forget that the flyers in S.A. were originally rebuilt in Exeter to flight standard, but the CAA wouldn't play. Every time a requirement was complied with, they moved the goalposts. That is why they were exported. Funny, Thunder City can manage to operate them without 'type authority' back up from BAE? Same with their Buccaneers. The CAA are just frightened of Mach 2 aircraft in private hands in our "crowded"? airspace. I'm amazed they let the Vixen fly, 'cos the original owner had that bird up to Mach 1.3 over the Channel; I know 'cos I spoke to the pilot at Fairford.

Edited September 6, 2008 by bentwaters81tfw

[Nev]

Outclassing an F-15- how bloody cool is that?!

Well, lets not descend into hyperbole. It said that a Lightning was slightly quicker off the ground, and thats about it. Don't get me wrong, I love the Lightning, and it was an awesome bird but we shouldn't let its stupefying acceleration and climb rate blind us to all its other shortcomings (and there were many), lest we all end up sounding like Roly Beaumont.

I always liked the story that (I think) Ian Black told of a 1v1 against a Dutch F-16. Having just refuelled he was able to give it full reheat and for 2 minutes he flew his Lightning for all it was worth and was just about holding his own and wondering what all the fuss was about when suddenly the F-16 got onto his tail and stuck there. After the fight he asked "What happened? I was doing so well?"

Answer: Well, I was finding it a bit difficult so I decided to use afterburner........

[corporate]

Well, lets not descend into hyperbole. It said that a Lightning was slightly quicker off the ground, and thats about it.

Yes, terrific aircraft in many ways, but like so many British fighters it was hamstrung by limited fuel capacity. Plus it required extremely intensive maintenance and was generally very expensive to keep flying. First time I remember seeing one was in, er, the mid-1960s, at an RAF Upavon display day. My dad took me with a schoolfriend, and as we walked across some rising ground on the airfield, very suddenly and unexpectedly two (three?) Lightnings blasted UP from beyond (and beneath!) the gentle hillside a short distance away. They were very low, very fast, and extremely loud! Thrilled us to bits. Lovely 'plane, great in its own very narrow field indeed a world beater, but just too limited to compare realistically with the F-15 or F-16 both of which are just all-round more competent.

[entlim]

thing is, despite it's immediate shortcomings, it was way , way ahead of it's time..................................

[MikeC]

...

Yes many of us are all to aware of just how good the Lightning is. Then you have to remember it was first designed in 1947. It would have flown sooner than 1954 if it wasn't for the Ministry of Supply not believing in the design and ordering the Shorts SB5 to prove the concept....

And if it hadn't worked we'd have had many many people moaning about how the MoS wasted taxpayers' money investing in "pie-in-the-sky" designs when what everyone knew we needed was an improved Hunter. Hindsight is always 20/20 and decisions easy to critique with the benefit of a few decades experience.

[Deanflyer]

I always liked the story that (I think) Ian Black told of a 1v1 against a Dutch F-16. Having just refuelled he was able to give it full reheat and for 2 minutes he flew his Lightning for all it was worth and was just about holding his own and wondering what all the fuss was about when suddenly the F-16 got onto his tail and stuck there. After the fight he asked "What happened? I was doing so well?"

Answer: Well, I was finding it a bit difficult so I decided to use afterburner........

I've always liked that story too - it was Flt Lt Chris Allan in a Lightning against Captain De Vos Herman of the Belgian Air Force in an F-16:

"After 5-6 minutes in full 'burner (I'd just air-to-air refuelled), pulling and pushing into +6/-2G maneouvres, I allowed myself the thought that I was doing better than OK against Herman's high-tech American hot rod. Then it happened. Herman suddenly zocked onto my six, taking enough film for a couple of Hollywood movies. Back on the ground, I asked 'Fox' (Herman's nickname) "What did you do? - I mean, you came from nowhere." Fox replied, "Oh, I was finding it a bit difficult, so I decided to use my afterburner..." "

The Lightning might not have been the best air to air dogfighter, but who cares now? Everybody has an affinity with a different plane for a different reason, but you can't deny that for it's time and for a while afterwards, the Lightning was IMPRESSIVE.

Cheers,

Dean

[Catbird]

The Lightning was an amazing plane. I was lucky enough to have lived under the Binbrook flightpath(and still do) and "wasted" far too much of my younger days sat at CG3 at Binbrook enjoying the Lightning experience. Best spotting days of my life.

[AnonymousFY21]

Some pretty impressive stats there, goes to show what a quality interceptor the lightning really was.

I'd like to point out though that it's not the CAA who are solely responsible for the Lightnings never flying in the UK again. Firstly, to achieve such a thing would require engineering support from BAE Systems or a similar company, which won't happen due to the immense cost of such a project. Secondly, there aren't enough spares or zero-houred parts around to restore an airframe that would have a sufficiently long display life. Thirdly, the Lightning has a pretty poor safety record and as such the insurance costs would be far too high. There are a number of other reasons which sadly prevent it from happening. Don't get me wrong, 'tis a damn shame- I never even got to see a Lightning - but realistically it can't happen.

Indeed if it was possible, the CAA would be more than happy to allow it to fly provided it attained their requirements in the complex aircraft category.

They can do it in South Africa.

Along with the Viggen the Lightning is still embedded in memories from Farnborough and Mildenhall.

Yes fuel was limited and it was a poor dog fighter, but what a piece of British engineering. Something we should be proud of.

rich

[Seamus]

They can do it in South Africa.

Indeed, but I'd be willing to bet the South African equivalent of the CAA is less stringent in it's regulations than our own. Also, I believe that the chap who took them over also took a large amount of spares with him, hence the point I pointed out in my earlier post.

I also think-though I'd happily be corrected if wrong- that the chap who operates them (name escapes me) puts a large amount of his own personal wealth into keeping them in the air, something I doubt will happen over here sadly

[AnonymousFY21]

You are probably right and I wasn't aware that spares were readily available.

Thanks for the info.

rich

[bentwaters81tfw]

Don't forget, the Lightning was never designed as a fighter, it was a Proof of Concept aircraft, that was so bloody good, the MOD wanted it because it outperformed EVERYTHING else in the air or on the drawing board. Not much chance of wasting huge sums of taxpayers cash for a 2-off concept aircraft. The SB-5 was a total waste of money. The MoS should have had more faith in Teddy Petters design. Everything else he came up with was a resounding success. The P1121 and the SR 177 never got off the ground becuase there was no engine for the former, and you can't air to air refuel a rocket motor very easily. The Lightning was SO powerful, that it was possible to use up the entire fatigue index in one flight if you really pushed it. Mike Beachy Head may have sunk lots of cash into his fleet, but it repays him with hirings from the US Navy test team coming to play in them. Spares were still plentiful when the beast was retired, with all the stuff that came from Saudi. Tyres were a problem, and Dunlop reopened the production line to keep the flyers supplied. A Lightning would write off a set of tyres in about 4 landings.

Incidentally, one Lighting pilot upset the crew of a SR-71 when they were still classified; he came alongside one unannounced over the North Sea...The SR-71 departed rapidly with a nice blue plume from the jetpipes.

[Fmk.6john]

HHHHHHMmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........Lightnings...........

There are so many story's and tales for this beautifull machine, a legend in it's own time and forever after, we have two birds in fast taxi condition at Bruntingthorpe airfield (XR728 and XS904), XR728 is being nursed back to health with re-heat snags (that's lightnings for ya!!) and we are also currently re-building a Q-shed that is ex Wattisham.

During the year we have open days and perform aborted take offs using full afterburner on both engines and deploy the chute at the end of the run, for anyone who has allready been there it is an experience you will never forget, also on the airfield there is a collection of other cold war jets, 3 x Bucaneers, jet provost, Victor, Canopus, Iskra, Hunter, Canberra all in fast taxi condition, also a selection of other statick exibits including a Super Guppy and cockpit sections of Lightnings, Phantoms, Victor, Buccs and more.

Keep an eye on the Lightning Preservation Goups web page for the up and comming Twilight Afterburner extravaganza that will be taking place soon...... http://www.lightnings.org.uk/index.htm

A few to wet the whistle??.........

On the run maintenance.......

And a little video of an aborted take off I shot a couple of years ago......

Picture video I compiled.......

Phew I'm all spent now, need to go and lay down!!!!.

Regards,

John.

[ElectroSoldier]

If I had a lottery win getting a 56sqdrn jet back into the air would be one of the first things I would do with it...

Beautiful, just plane beautiful

[Nev]

Awesome vid John, thanks for posting. You forget how much the Lightning resembled sh*t off a stick. The only modern plane that comes close for me is the Typhoon - would love to see that when it gives it full reheat...

And now you've got me hankering over building a Lightning. I was procrastinating of the Best of British GB, but I really must build a Lightning - what else?

And to paraphrase the Emperor Augustus, "Publius Quinctilius Varus, give me my Trumpeter Lightnings!!!!"

[Catbird]

Cant wait for the new mould Lightnings to be released. Once they are I can see me building nothing else for quite some time. No idea how many I will end up lined up on my display shelf.

[John B (Sc)]

A fine aeroplane, for its era. I think it was Farnborough - the aerodynamics boys there, rather than the MoS, who had doubts, about sweep and especially about tail position. Hence the SB5.

I recall seeing Lightnings 'in action' here in NE Scotland a bunch of years ago, while NATO exercises were playing. I was cruising around in a sailplane in wave around 8,000 ft. A Lightning appeared above me flying in a race track pattern, loafing along obviously checking for 'intruders'. Then I saw another to my South, below, also just loafing. Next thing the guy above rolled over and lit up - a gaggle of Buccaneers were dodging through the hills at their usual just subsonic hammer. The top cover Lightning accelerated fast to drop down behind them, then two Phantoms popped up headiung for HIS tail. The low Lightning joined in behind them going like a scalded cat. You could see his burners going. Last clear picture I saw, the Lightnings and Phantoms were pulling hard and heading down past Loch Muick while the Buccs exited in a fast weaving jumble to the NW. After that I saw occasional flashes from wings in the sun as the fighters had a mock dogfight up and down around the Muick area. Ten minutes or so later, presumably after a tanker visit, Mr. top cover was back overhead, flying lazy ovals again. Wonderful stuff to see.

A Lightning take-off at night was something to see & hear - especially if the pilot did the accelerate then pull caper. Of course that killed at least one pilot - in Singapore. Needed care to avoid a stall & flick departure, when the aircraft apparently would go wildly walkabout.

Edited September 6, 2008 by John B (Sc)

[Plastic Bonsai]

It was still pretty awesome at the end.

Some years ago I was lucky to live in a quiet village that also seemed to double as a roundabout for fast jets - not that I minded.

I was diving home along straight tree lined road and was a little suprised to see a Jaguar coming in the opposite direction with a Lightning on his tail. As they thundered overhead I glanced to my left and saw another Jaguar trying to get behind a barely noticeable hill with two more Lightnings very close behind. I can only assume that the Jags were just glad it was the Lightnings' last week of operations.

An interceptor par excellance with a very fast reaction time - 2 minutes from the pilot being in bed.

Has anyone had any experiance of the Heritage F6? There's one on ARC today and the Heritage site lists it as being £50 which would trump (sorry) the forthcoming 1/32nd kit.

[PHREAK]

The Lightning was an amazing plane. I was lucky enough to have lived under the Binbrook flightpath(and still do) and "wasted" far too much of my younger days sat at CG3 at Binbrook enjoying the Lightning experience. Best spotting days of my life.

I was lucky enough to live on Binbrook for 3 years during the 1960's....best years of my life.

[bentwaters81tfw]

I looked at the Heritage offering. The fuselage looks too deep to me.....any thoughts?

[AnonymousFO98]

Lightenings. . . sigh

According to the release schedules there were whole squadrons due to be released this year- and release schedules never lie.

Anyone know what and when is coming out where please? Summat else lovely to add to the lenghtening list.