Sutton harnesses for the Spitfire

[Edgar]

I have to thank Wez for a flash of illumination, on this subject; for ages I couldn't understand the continual references to "The Q harness," since I couldn't find any corresponding mention, anywhere. His reference to "Quick release" finally opened the door, but I fear that modern parlance has been assigned, too readily, to wartime usage, and Q did not = quick release. Single letters seem to refer to the type of Sutton, not the type of harness; in the Hurricane II manual, A.P.1564B, for instance, the harness is quoted as "F-type or L-type." Early Spitfire drawings, initially, just say "Sutton harness," but later refer to "Sutton K type."

Now complications set in! A modification (undated in Vickers' mod ledger,) 922 introduced the "QK" type harness, on the VII, VIII, etc., up to the 22, but it was conditional on mod 1117 (to strengthen seat) being embodied. Someone (who, or when, I've no idea) crossed out QK, and substituted just Q. The drawing office either ignored this, or did their drawings before the crossing out, since I've found a drawing of the QK harness, and it's still a Sutton, albeit with a different anchorage method for the "Y" strap. On said drawing mod 730 is dated 1-10-43, and further notes were added 13-12-44, and in A.P. 1565J (for the Spitfire IX) mod 960 "To delete alternative cable manufacture on Sutton harness" is dated February, 1944, and there's a further amenment dated December 1944, still to the Sutton harness; I take this to mean that the Sutton was still in use in 1945. (There is a photo, in this month's Aeroplane Monthly, of a XIV, taken in February 1945, which shows a strap hanging over the cockpit sill; three of us have now verified that it has holes, in it, meaning that the Sutton was still in use, that late in the war.)

I've found another drawing, for a "QL" harness, which was first drawn 21-10-44, then modified, to incorporate mod 1575, ("To relocate harness") in April 1945. During the same timescale a "QS" harness appeared, first drawn in August 1944, and including the same mod, in April 1945. Both of these harnesses had the parachute-type quick-release box, but only the QS gets into the ledger, and not until 6-8-46. The only differnce, that I can see is that the QL box seems thinner (less substantial?) than that of the QS, so maybe it was dropped? With both of these harnesses the "Y" strap disappeared, and the thigh straps moved back to the corners of the seat, to come over the pilot's hips.

Next came the "ZB" harness (mod 1731,) from January/February 1950, which had the same arrangement, but the shoulder straps went through a bracket, behind the pilot's neck, then dived down, behind the seat, to be anchored at the base of the bulkhead; I'm assuming that this was to avoid the fuselage tank, even though it was supposed to be for the 14 (no more Roman numerals by then!) onwards.

Now we come to the vexed question of the "Y" strap allegedly coming through the hole in the seat, and the "Q" part of the QK might very well refer to this (slide a strap through a "O" and you form a "Q") but it should be remembered that QK only refers to mod 922, which needed the stronger seat, is only mentioned for later (VII, onwards) Marks, and can you find any photographs where seats show any sign of wear round that hole? I can't.

"After all, it goes through that hole, in the Hurricane" is always thrown at me, as well. True, but the drawing, in the Hurricane manual, shows a kink, in the drawn line, where it goes through the backrest; no such kink appears in the Spitfire V manual.

I have found only one drawing, of a seat, which says that the hole is for the harness, but it's a metal seat, it's aimed at the Seafire, as well, since it has the provision for Very pistol cartridges, under the pilot's knees, and it's dated October, 1943. There is also a drawing, for the Seafire, which shows two spruce blocks to be fitted tight between the backrest and the armour. Since these are angled towards each other, with a top gap of only 3", there is no way that a "Y" strap could have been fitted there, since it would have jammed as the pilot tried to lean forward.

Earlier drawings do not mention the harness, also the drawing, for the metal Mark I seat, shows the hole as being in the armour, not the backrest.

I'll be bringing these drawings to the IPMS Nationals; if anyone wants to have a look, let me know. Since most are A2, or A3, prints, I can't get them onto here.

Edgar

P.S. I have a photo, of a genuine Spitfire I seat, but I can't get this thread to accept it, yet.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Edgar

[Edgar]

Got it! Finally persuaded Photobucket to yield. This is a metal seat, originally from the Mark I era, which is still in use in a XVI. It's been converted to take the QS harness, but it would have been somewhat difficult to feed the Sutton harness through the non-existant hole, I reckon. Don't forget, too, that Airfix didn't put a hole in the seat, in their 1/24th Mk.I.

Edgar

Edited August 6, 2008 by Edgar

[biggles2000]

Very interesting post - especially the pic of the seat. Do you know whether the very early production Spits had a seat cushion?

John

[Edgar]

As far as I can tell, they didn't; perhaps the Mae West, plus extra warm clothing was originally sufficient, but, with more efficient cockpit heating later, some pilots flew in shirtsleeves, at times, which could have led to discomfort.

The backrest, in the photo, is obviously a late addition, since it has the cut-out, for the hole.

Edgar

Edited August 7, 2008 by Edgar

[TonyT]

Interesting read, here are pictures of the seat fitted in the Mk X1X I took, note it has had a repair carried out to the back in its history, but is still servicable and flying today. COPYRIGHT on all Images retained by me you may use them for personal use only.

Additionally the Shoulder harness mounts on the MkX1X

Hope they help......

Oh and a SMALL version of a compilation of shots I did, showing the seat with chute in place with the cockpit as well...Enjoy

Edited August 31, 2008 by TonyT

[Edgar]

Tony, I think that you've provided an answer to a question that's been aggravating me for months. From the look of that seat, I reckon that it's one that incorporates the strengthening mod (1117) since it's decidedly more substantial than the seat (below,) which I photographed in a XVI (the Spitfire which disrupted the cricket match post-Battle of Britain flypast.) Although yours is designed for a Seafire (witness the row of Very cartridge holes under the pilot's thighs,) there's no sign that the seat ever carried the pistol-carrying frame, and Vickers' ledger states that the Seafire incorporated the same strengthening mod as the Spitfire. Since the QK harness could only be used with the strengthened seat, maybe the beefing-up made the seat too thick for the harness to go behind it, hence the rerouting of the Y strap. Incidentally, for those who still insist that the harness went through the hole, the QK was only to be fitted to the Mk.VII, onwards, so Special Hobby have got it right, in their new kit of the VC, when they tell you to run the harness in the traditional way.

On HS, yesterday, a photograph was shown, of the wreckage of DW-D's cockpit, showing the ruined (metal) seat, which shows traces of a green very like the Humbrol 90 ( seen by us on AR213.) It also shows the remains of a backrest, so they must have been in use throughout the war.

Edgar

Edited September 1, 2008 by Edgar

[dylan the rabbit]

[TonyT]

Tony, I think that you've provided an answer to a question that's been aggravating me for months. From the look of that seat, I reckon that it's one that incorporates the strengthening mod (1117) since it's decidedly more substantial than the seat (below,) which I photographed in a XVI (the Spitfire which disrupted the cricket match post-Battle of Britain flypast.) Although yours is designed for a Seafire (witness the row of Very cartridge holes under the pilot's thighs,) there's no sign that the seat ever carried the pistol-carrying frame, and Vickers' ledger states that the Seafire incorporated the same strengthening mod as the Spitfire. Since the QK harness could only be used with the strengthened seat, maybe the beefing-up made the seat too thick for the harness to go behind it, hence the rerouting of the Y strap. Incidentally, for those who still insist that the harness went through the hole, the QK was only to be fitted to the Mk.VII, onwards, so Special Hobby have got it right, in their new kit of the VC, when they tell you to run the harness in the traditional way.

On HS, yesterday, a photograph was shown, of the wreckage of DW-D's cockpit, showing the ruined (metal) seat, which shows traces of a green very like the Humbrol 90 ( seen by us on AR213.) It also shows the remains of a backrest, so they must have been in use throughout the war.

Edgar

Edgar,

The seat in the MK19 is a correct seat for the Mk19, the flare holders were in most models and not just the Seafires, indeed the parts manual for the Mk19 also gives references to the other versions that had them fitted, including the Spitfire MK1.

The Mk 19 carries its flare pistol mounted on the Cockpit wall. although no longer fitted the Original bracketry is still there and can be seen at the top right hand corner of this picture........ Remember the flares and gun were often carried not just for signalling but as a means to dispose of your Aircraft if it ever came down the wrong side of the channel. The seat in your pic looks to be more or less the same as mine, the only difference is it lacks some of the leather trim around the edges and the flare holders.

The hole on the rear of the seat is as said, not for having straps through, but is simply a hand hole for lifting and installing the seat, the round one in the right hand side of the seat near the back pad is for fitting a gust lock through, the larger one again in the seat base of the right hand side is alo a hand hold for lifting it out and carrying it by. Hope that helps.

Tony

Edited September 2, 2008 by TonyT