Seat Belts In RN Hellcats

[Wez]

Just picked up the Eduard FAA Hellcat from the postie depot on my way to work - first thoughts LUVVERLY! Box full of lots of shiney-shiney

However, I think Eduard may have dropped a clanger with the seat belts only I'm not sure

Did the RN's Hellcats have British "Q" type harnesses fitted or did they retain the American ones as per the PE in the kit, likewise, did the radios get replaced with Brit ones?

Now I know there are those of you out there who will say "well of course they did" but it doesn't always happen that way - I worked for 20 years on an American built aircraft in RAF service and it retained American seat belts but then wartime is different, there were far greater numbers involved and logistically it makes sense until of course you start thinking about operations with the Yanks in the Far East where a bit of commonaility may have been wise.

Your thoughts please?

Regards

Wez

[LDSModeller]

Hi Wez

Re: the seat belts, as far as I am aware early Hellcats F6F-3 would have had US seat belts replaced by a Sutton harness.

Later F6F-5's depending on where they were delivered/served could have used either Sutton or US types.

As far as radios' go, in 1942, Britain and the US began a development of a combined radio. At that time Britain

had the TR 1143 in most fighter aircraft and the US developed the SCR 522 from the TR 1143.

So to make a long answer short, you probably will find later war Hellcats (F6F-5) had US supplied radios due to

the commonality between US/British radios/frequecies.

Hope tht helps

Alan

[Wez]

Hi Wez

Re: the seat belts, as far as I am aware early Hellcats F6F-3 would have had US seat belts replaced by a Sutton harness.

Later F6F-5's depending on where they were delivered/served could have used either Sutton or US types.

As far as radios' go, in 1942, Britain and the US began a development of a combined radio. At that time Britain

had the TR 1143 in most fighter aircraft and the US developed the SCR 522 from the TR 1143.

So to make a long answer short, you probably will find later war Hellcats (F6F-5) had US supplied radios due to

the commonality between US/British radios/frequecies.

Hope tht helps

Alan

Thanks Alan,

I suspected that about the radios however why the Sutton Harness? Wasn't that being actively replaced by the quick release "Q" Type from about 1943 onwards?

Regards

Wez

[LDSModeller]

Hi Wez,

I would imagine Q type harness would be used as they were available.

I recall Edgar making a comment that the Sutton harness was used right through the war.

Another facet is the availability also. Items in Europe like the Q harness may have made

it into FAA F6F's but in the Far East (SEAC) not so much as they tended to get newer equipment

later or not at all. If all they had was a Sutton harness that's what they used.

I am building a RAF 339E Buffalo mark and found out that while newer RAF types (late 1941) etc were recieving the TR 1143

radio the poor Buffalo pilots had to make do with the anitiquated TR9D so I guess anything goes.

Hope that helps

Alan

[Edgar]

Thanks Alan,

I suspected that about the radios however why the Sutton Harness? Wasn't that being actively replaced by the quick release "Q" Type from about 1943 onwards?

Regards

Wez

From what I'm finding there was no such thing as a "Q" harness. I'm still researching, but am fairly close to being able to provide an answer, at least for Spitfires, but I don't believe that other aircraft would have received a more advanced harness, while Spitfires lagged behind, and I've found written evidence that the Sutton was still in use, in the IX, after March, 1944, and there's a recent photograph, of a XIV, taken in February, 1945, which shows a Sutton strap hanging over the cockpit sill. It's known that RAF Mustangs had their harnesses replaced by the Sutton, so I don't see how the Hellcats would have been any different.

It also bears remembering that distance would have come into the equation, regarding radios. In Europe, VHF became the norm, hence the disappearance of the long aerials, but they can be seen on Pacific theatre aircraft (Mustangs, for instance,) so maybe the TR9-type had to remain in use.

Edgar

[Wez]

From what I'm finding there was no such thing as a "Q" harness. I'm still researching, but am fairly close to being able to provide an answer, at least for Spitfires, but I don't believe that other aircraft would have received a more advanced harness, while Spitfires lagged behind, and I've found written evidence that the Sutton was still in use, in the IX, after March, 1944, and there's a recent photograph, of a XIV, taken in February, 1945, which shows a Sutton strap hanging over the cockpit sill. It's known that RAF Mustangs had their harnesses replaced by the Sutton, so I don't see how the Hellcats would have been any different.

It also bears remembering that distance would have come into the equation, regarding radios. In Europe, VHF became the norm, hence the disappearance of the long aerials, but they can be seen on Pacific theatre aircraft (Mustangs, for instance,) so maybe the TR9-type had to remain in use.

Edgar

Edgar,

Thanks for this, although I believe "Q" Harness to be a slang name for what I've always understood to have been (originally), the Irvine Quick Release Harness - maybe that too isn't its proper name (after all you ask anybody who's worked on a RAF wokka to point to the "bogseat" they'll be able to do so, ask them to point out the "aft pylon, lower leading edge fairing" - its official name, many of them might be stuck)! I don't see why the Spitfire should have got the things before anybody else - don't forget there were thousands of them and to replace the belt would have been a mod and therefore done on an ad-hoc basis (and don't forget that modification would have to be promulgated before new-build aircraft got it). The same applies to the Mustang whereas the Tempest, Corsair and Hellcat for instance would have been "new types" and could potentially therefore, be specified with a new harness from the start (I'm playing devil's advocate here because I believe this whole area to be a bit of a minefield).

Of course the supply system will always throw a wobbler 'cos the specified items will never be in stock or will be held back because "someone else might want them" !!! Another thing to take into consideration is the belts themselves aren't a permanent fixture and have a servicing cycle of their own and would be replaced at some point - but what with?

Also, didn't these aircraft go through some sort of acceptance programme either through an industry partner (like Blackburn's) or an MU? They weren't delivered straight from Grumman to the flying units were they? What was done as part of they're acceptance?

The more I think about it the more I'm coming to the conclusion that I could build it with either the original US seat belt, a Sutton or an Irvine type harness and wait for the evidence to prove me wrong.

Regarding radios I'd agree the European based ones had different radios fitted because of the removal of the aerial wire but I suspect that Alan's description of the similarity between the TR1143 and the SCR 522 is the clue here - so likewise, I think I could get away with leaving the kit radio in there and again wait to be proved wrong.

Thanks for your help all - after that I need a beer! Landlord! A pint of tanglefoot please!

Regards

Wez

Edited July 29, 2008 by Wez

[Edgar]

The biggest bind is that I can't find any mention of a "Q" harness, except in the ledger of (Vickers) Spitfire mods, in which "QK" is laid down, but someone crossed it out, and substituted just "Q." In the drawings, I've found "QK," "QL," & "QS," all different, and all dated differently, too. Just to help things along, there's a "ZB" harness, in 1949/50. Of course, the harnesses seem to be tied in with seat design, as well, just to confuse the issue even further.

Somewhere there's a book, about the huge storage/distribution centre (around Liverpool, perhaps?) where U.S. aircraft were held, before being issued to the Groups. In Air-Britain's "The British Air Commision and Lend-Lease," there are photos of a/c being assembled, at M.U.s, with others, still in crates, awaiting assembly, at, for example, Colerne. I'd say that the work was carried out by the British assembly crews, wherever they were.

Edgar

Edited July 29, 2008 by Edgar

[Wez]

The biggest bind is that I can't find any mention of a "Q" harness, except in the ledger of (Vickers) Spitfire mods, in which "QK" is laid down, but someone crossed it out, and substituted just "Q." In the drawings, I've found "QK," "QL," & "QS," all different, and all dated differently, too. Just to help things along, there's a "ZB" harness, in 1949/50. Of course, the harnesses seem to be tied in with seat design, as well, just to confuse the issue even further.

Somewhere there's a book, about the huge storage/distribution centre (around Liverpool, perhaps?) where U.S. aircraft were held, before being issued to the Groups. In Air-Britain's "The British Air Commision and Lend-Lease," there are photos of a/c being assembled, at M.U.s, with others, still in crates, awaiting assembly, at, for example, Colerne. I'd say that the work was carried out by the British assembly crews, wherever they were.

Edgar

What a bloody minefield!

Thanks Edgar,

Like I said I think the reference to "Q" Harnesses is a generic term, I would expect there to be different p/n's depending on mounting variations - this is consistent with British military aircraft

Thanks for the steer on the book, I'll try and look it up.

Regards

Wez

[MikeC]

Many years ago, when I were a lad in the 70s, I was a staff cadet on an ATC Air Experience Flight. Our Chipmunks had the four-point harness while they were painted in the light grey/dayglo scheme. I recall that this was referred to as "Q-type", and the straps were blue or black. Then they went off for refurbishment. The refurbished aircraft wore the new (then) red/white/grey scheme and had black 5-point harnesses which were referred to as "Z-type". Whether this was official or not I know not, but it was pretty general.

[Wez]

Many years ago, when I were a lad in the 70s, I was a staff cadet on an ATC Air Experience Flight. Our Chipmunks had the four-point harness while they were painted in the light grey/dayglo scheme. I recall that this was referred to as "Q-type", and the straps were blue or black. Then they went off for refurbishment. The refurbished aircraft wore the new (then) red/white/grey scheme and had black 5-point harnesses which were referred to as "Z-type". Whether this was official or not I know not, but it was pretty general.

Yup!

That's largely how I remeber it too - similar time frame I guess!

The point is these things have a habit of being referred to within the user community as one thing but appearing in official liturature as something else - I know I used to write mods for the RAF and always had to balance the vernacular with the official "nomenclature" - or name as we humans call it!

Regards

Wez