Exhaust collector ring

[Heraldcoupe]

As I have a thing about big Bristols, several of my current projects have twin Hercules engines. When painting the exhaust collector ring, I generally go for a burnt copper colour. While there's plenty of period photographic evidence in colour to back this up, many black and white photographs show a much lighter colour, perhaps white or silver. I struggle to accept this is a paint finish able to withstand the heat, unless the exhaust runs a lot cooler than I anticipate. Were the collector rings on some aircraft made of a different material, or is there another explanation I am completely missing?

Cheers,

Bill.

[AnonymousA667]

As I have a thing about big Bristols

Are you related to Bob von Buckle?!

Personally I think any sort of pure copper colour is a bit strange for collector rings. The ones that I have seen tend to be slightly discoloured variations of the base metal colour, slightly reddish, bronzish and rusty.

peebeep

[Heraldcoupe]

I have to confess to admiring Bob's avatars and sometimes forgetting what the message is about half way through.....

Burnt copper is pretty much what you are describing as "slightly reddish, bronzish and rusty", pure copper is completely different, and I agree it would be quite wrong.

Nevertheless, I have plenty of pictures showing pale collector rings, with one or two in colour which "seem" to show a bright steel or aluminium colour. I was pondering whether the colour varied depending on the heat within the collector ring, but white hot is pretty unlikely, and I have plenty of in-flight pictures with the burnt copper colour evident.

Cheers,

Bill.

[Red Arrow Jag]

Take a look at photos of the new Gladiator at duxford. In view of painting a collector ring, I would start with a base of silver, then start building layers of a burnt copper/ brown/black type shade, depending on how used the aircraft has been.

try typing gladiator duxford into flickr.com

regards

[AnonymousA667]

I managed to find this pic in my files that may be helpful:

Definite evidence of variation in materials, but it could simply be the difference between the hot and cold parts of the component. I've always assumed the collector rings were made from steel.

peebeep

[entlim]

Then in that case, try Citadel's Tin Bitz colour...........

[Test Graham]

Be careful about assuming that modern collector rings were made of the same material as older ones.

However, if you are talking about WW2, paint was sometimes applied to the collector rings to reduce the glow. I suspect white would be used on Coastal Command aircraft.

[leader3]

take a look at the latest issue of scale aviation modeler international, and in the letters section there is a letter called 'inside dope' and its from a chap who has been there and seen them for real.

it was interesting to read his recollections on collector rings.

it may help

[Heraldcoupe]

However, if you are talking about WW2, paint was sometimes applied to the collector rings to reduce the glow. I suspect white would be used on Coastal Command aircraft.

I've seen several published pictures of Beaufighters with the remains of a well scuffed multi-shaded finish on the collector rings, doubtless this would be a worn paint finish. In most cases I would go with the balance of probabilities and put down a dark reddy-brown, with a hint of metallic. This one's an allover-white Wellington though, where photographs have the collector rings showing little difference in tone to the main airframe colour. Unless something else comes up, I will run with white, with maybe a slight darkening to show some variation in this area.

Cheers,

Bill.

[Glenn R]

As I have a thing about big Bristols, several of my current projects have twin Hercules engines. When painting the exhaust collector ring, I generally go for a burnt copper colour. While there's plenty of period photographic evidence in colour to back this up, many black and white photographs show a much lighter colour, perhaps white or silver. I struggle to accept this is a paint finish able to withstand the heat, unless the exhaust runs a lot cooler than I anticipate. Were the collector rings on some aircraft made of a different material, or is there another explanation I am completely missing?

Cheers,

Bill.

Hi Bill,

Let me put my three penn'th in on this subject. Firstly, exhaust collector rings, and pipes, are made of steel (stainless?), so painting them a bright bronze colour, as seen on many published model photos, is not correct. The colour of the steel changes with age and so, great variations in colour can be seen. During WWII some radial engined aircraft had their collector rings painted with a semi heat proof off white paint to cut down the glow of the ring at night, eg. Beaufort, Swordfish and some Beaufighters. This paint gradually discoloured or wore off, so, again, great variations can be seen.

Some aircraft even had a ring in front of the collector ring which was ,again, a different colour to the collector ring itself. So, from all this, all I can say is check the photos of the aircraft you wish to model.

For myself I usually paint the collector rings and exhaust a dirty brown/grey colour and then a very light drybrushing of gold followed by a very light drybrushing of silver.

Here are a couple of my models to give you an example.

This is my I.D. 1/32 Halifax

I.D. 1/32 Sunderland note the extra ring in front of the collector ring.

Glenn

[Edgar]

Ian Huntley wrote a couple of articles, on radial engines, and he said that the collector rings were made of a heat-resistant steel alloy. The front, apparently separate, ring is a baffle/duct, which takes cooler air from the engine area, and blows it across the exterior face. The ring, itself, resembles a slightly misshapen "U," with a cover plate over the top. At the front (under the baffle,) and rear, the double thickess of metal tended to discolour more slowly than the middle. This meant that the baffle discoloured much more slowly than the ring proper, so was inclined to be more silvery. The middle section went dark brown (not rust,) while the rear, fairly thin, ring went a golden-brown. Any rear gills could be camouflaged, or left in n/m. If unpainted, the main plates were a matt light steel shade, while the smaller interlocking plates (only visible if the gills were open) were a darker gunmetal.

Edgar

[Heraldcoupe]

During WWII some radial engined aircraft had their collector rings painted with a semi heat proof off white paint to cut down the glow of the ring at night, eg. Beaufort, Swordfish and some Beaufighters. This paint gradually discoloured or wore off, so, again, great variations can be seen.

I can reconcile this to my chosen subject, which was an ex-Bomber Command Wellington, repainted in overall white for the FAA. While the finish isn't pristeen, the aircraft had a relatively short career in this scheme, and the white collector rings appear to be largely unweathered.

Thanks for all the advice, I am considerably more informed on the subject now!

Cheers,

Bill.

[Derek Bradshaw]

Hi Bill.

I can only back up Glenn and Edgar's appreciation and advice on external engine cowling rings. As Edgar stated, the external ring seen on many British radial engine aircraft were made of steel (possibly alloy-steel, although I have seen many stainless and normal steel ones as well). The engine collector ring proper was fabricated from either forged steel or high tempreture stainless steel sheet, welded into the the oval section collector ring, complete with exhaust manifolds. The collector ring then had the outer sheath steel ring assembled onto it - somtimes there was a gap to form a baffle, other times it was attached directly to the surface of the collector ring to form a 'double heat skin'. When new, these outer cowling rings were either polished or painted (high tempreture) silver or matt black. With use, the paint gradually deterioated and discoloured to a burnt metal colour, then dark bronze colour, then rust colour (weather had a large part in this). The rings would be cleaned up/wire brushed and be repainted in service use (normally black).

HTH

Derek

Edited May 29, 2008 by Derek Bradshaw

[dogsbody]

From Chaz Bowyer's " Beaufighter At War".

This Beau in being assembled in the factory. Notice the difference between the two collector rings.

Edited July 29, 2017 by dogsbody

[dylan the rabbit]

I always thought copper looked a bit odd, and would say a base coat of steel, and then a bit of Tamiya smoke, and perhaps some very thinned down copper would be fine on top of that?

Here's a shot of a Lysander from the Shuttleworth Collection. I realise this is a pristine model, but it ain't copper..

Cheers,

Nick

[Heraldcoupe]

This Beau in being assembled in the factory. Notice the difference between the two collector rings.

The lefthand one looks like it's been pre-weathered! There seem to be a few reflections of the righthand collector ring, probably photographic flash, this may increase the apparent difference between the two collector rings. That left one though certainly looks plausibly like the one I'm modelling,

Cheers,

Bill.

[dogsbody]

A few images from Roger A. Freeman's book " The Royal Air Force of World War Two In Colour." There is a fair bit of variation in the colour of the collector ring and notice the colour of the rings on the Beaufort. I guess you cannot totally disregard the copper colour.

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by dogsbody
Photobucket can suck it!

[AnonymousA667]

I guess you cannot totally disregard the copper colour.

I would. I have a copy of the book and it is quite clear that a good number of the photos were developed with incorrect filtration - including the Beaufort and Blenheim pics you posted. Here's one I've tried to correct a bit (far from perfect):

The starboard nacelle has a coppery tone, some of which I believe is attributable to what looks like late afternoon lighting. I would still go with the reddish/rusty discolouration, but not neat copper.

peebeep

[MODeller]

Glad that this topic has finally surfaced as I feel that too many have blindly followed the "pure copper" route over many years and to me it looks totally wrong, copper being very heavy is the last thing you need on an aircraft! Taken these pics at Hendon, hope that they are of some use, you can clearly see the different colour tone of the inner section on some of the pics. MODeller

[plastic]

Well, for my tuppence worth lads---I always use Citadel Miniatures 'Tin Bitz'. You can mix some of there black, greys, beaten copper or chainmail to achieve different shades and varying the overcoat varnish sheen does wonders as well. Lets you have a number of different shades/sheens on the same collector. Then weather to suit.

Edited May 29, 2008 by plastic

[Heraldcoupe]

Glad that this topic has finally surfaced as I feel that too many have blindly followed the "pure copper" route over many years and to me it looks totally wrong, copper being very heavy is the last thing you need on an aircraft! Taken these pics at Hendon, hope that they are of some use, you can clearly see the different colour tone of the inner section on some of the pics.

Funnily enough, I was looking at the very same aircraft this morning! Very enlightening too, I've viewed and photographed them many times before, it's funny how you look at them with different eyes when you need specific information!

Cheers,

Bill.

[Nick Nichols]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8s6ch6mjaselav/000.jpg

Hello!

Tell me please, what metallic paint and what manufacturer is best suited for painting these rings?

I have humbrol 171, but it's too bright.

Thank you!

[Work In Progress]

As a starting point I suggest you use the colours recommended in post 10 of this thread. The paint manufacturer is immaterial: use whatever make you are using to paint the rest of your model.

[Julien]

We have a fair few pictures of these in a couple of threads in the walkaround section if of any interest.

Lysander: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76579-westland-lysander/

Gladiator: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76578-gloster-gladiator/

Swordfish: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234957719-fairey-swordfish/

Julien

[Selwyn]

That Lysander ring looks a bit patched up!

Selwyn