John Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7315686.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entlim Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Whoops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dereknf Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Ah well. Kept me in "work" for 5 years. Glad I'm out of it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexwh773 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Flippin typical. I got a good idea, make all our Armed Forces & Foes sit around a campfire and sing "Koom Byar" (soz abt spelling) that should save a few quid. Silly me, that will increase Global Warming Bexy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattie Bee Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Could be worse think of the poor guys who have to keep the MRs going OH NO!!!!!, there getting rig of the Rod R, that puts me out of a job and I have a Nimrod Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg B Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Flippin typical. I got a good idea, make all our Armed Forces & Foes sit around a campfire and sing "Koom Byar" (soz abt spelling) that should save a few quid. Silly me, that will increase Global Warming Bexy Yep there is not enough money in the pot, but the other problem is are we buying the stuff we actually need? All the stuff going over budget is stripping other cash from other areas. FRES looks like it is going down the pan so we can keep alive the carriers, Nimrods and Subs. Which in my eyes is very disapointing as the Army is and has been the most heavily committed arm for years, yet we are still tracking round in armoured vehicles that are over 50 years old, difficult to maintain and no amount of re-engining/re-fitting is going to change that. No matter how much you polish a turd, underneath its still a turd... Add to that the majority of our simple equipment is poor. SUSAT needs replacing its a 40 year old design, boots, body armour, helmets etc all are not really up to scratch. Most of our equipment is in theatre so the first time you see NVG's and the like you are wearing them for real for the first time. Not a good idea! If you look at the South Africans, when the embargoes started because of Apartheid, it forced the head sheds to actually buy what they need, not what looked nice or gave an impression of might. We do need carriers, subs, destroyers and Nimrod. But not at the cost of other less high profile things like equipment, ammo, radios, accomodation, infrastructure and pay. Why pay, well the pay award is a combination of what the board reccomends, tempered by what is actually available in the kitty to pay us! Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmojen Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Gregs right, we are so short of basic stuff that it's hard to get worked up over MRA4 Jen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary West Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Wouldn't it be good to hear that this same commitee instead of suggesting cancellation are looking into ways of stopping over budget/ over schedule developments, which seem to blight this country. Another nail in the British aviation coffin on it's way then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Pulfrew Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 (edited) the pay award is a combination of what the board reccomends, tempered by what is actually available in the kitty to pay us Sadly it's actually worse than that. The AFPRB recommend the pay and if the govt accept their recommendations then there is no increase in budget from HMT. The additional pay has to be found from within the extant budget. That means "savings" against programmes, ships, aircraft, bases etc. So although this year's pay rise was comparatively good (please note comparatively) it means cuts elsewhere to meet the additional pay. The fault here lies with the fact that the Armed Forces have been underfunded by Noo Liarbour AND the Tories before them. The "peace dividend" never really happened; since the wall come down we have had Gulf War 1, Bosnia, Kosovo, 12 years of operations in Iraq between the wars, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Gulf War II, I am sure I have missed a few. The only solution to the shortfall in the Defence budget is to increase it, not by the 1.5% that Liarbour keep banging on about (which in real terms is a cut) but by 5 or 6% or even 10%. If we stopped bailing out private banks or pouring money into the Sacred Cow/Black Hole of the NHS we could afford to provide the military with what they need. The danger in cancelling Nimrod, Astute and Typhoon Tranche 3 is that the savings will be minimal. The majority of the money is already spent. If we are to do savings then we should go for the high profile political targets that we might be able to do without. I don't wish to appear anti-RN, but that means the carriers. Nothing else can provide the level of savings and political hit that we require, and I am a fan of the RN getting the carriers!! Edited March 27, 2008 by Roland Pulfrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Wouldn't it be good to hear that this same commitee instead of suggesting cancellation are looking into ways of stopping over budget/ over schedule developments, which seem to blight this country. Isn't it funny how this never seems to be an issue? It seems to be permitted to happen (corruption anyone?), and it allows the contractors to milk the country (us) dry for an indeterminate length of time, with no comeback. Does anyone else find it strange that in business a contract will have penalty clauses in it for over-runs, but in Government contracts this just doesn't seem to feature? Bugs the hell out of me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary West Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 The only solution to the shortfall in the Defence budget is to increase it, not by the 1.5% that Liarbour keep banging on about (which in real terms is a cut) but by 5 or 6% or even 10%. If we stopped bailing out private banks or pouring money into the Sacred Cow/Black Hole of the NHS we could afford to provide the military with what they need. Spot on Roland - it aint gonna happen though is it. Defence is very PC lately, and it's intersting to see that the MOD have launched a "send a message to the troops" campaign to try and address this. Airmen from Wittering, Soldiers in hospitals - all being abused. The last thing this Govt will do is increase Defence funding only 2 years away from a certain event. Plus, the worlds economy is in a pretty poor state so even more financial centres are likely to receive assistance before our forces do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Perhaps they could also scrap Holyrood which had horrendous costs and time overruns. I'm sure business could be done equally well on a £50 Ikea table as it could on a £2000 hand made one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Do I hear 'second homes allowances for MP's' anyone. We know where the waste and overspend is, and it ain't defence. Next thing will be Trades Bikes for the Army, and redundant Spanish trawlers for the Navy. Air Force? they can have a few redundant Cessnas seeing the private pilots can't afford avgas anymore. I say cut the beaurocrats, and use the cash at the sharp end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dereknf Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Surely the real fault lies with BAE Systems failure to provide the aircraft within the contracted timescales and budget rather a lack of funding - how much more do they want? Also bearing in mind it was going to be 21 aircraft not 9. BAE completely underestimated how much it would for a "simple" re-engining job. 8 years late? They could have built a new one in that time... no wait a minute.... maybe not. The MOD must shoulder some of the blame as among other things, they wanted to use the old fuselages as a cost saving exercise...duh. Net result they didn't fit the computer designed shiny new wings and .. there are very few MR2s left either. Brilliant. The "pitch stability" problem was known about for a while but it accepted as a "risk", which means do nothing and maybe the problem will go away- it didn't. This is true of many other "issues" as they are called. Some the engineering decisions I know about on this project really would make your hair curl. The problem is that the RAF needs MRA4 now, or rather 8 years ago, so I don't believe cancellation is an option and BAE knows it too. The combination of BAE Systems Military division and MOD - unbeatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Nothing else can provide the level of savings and political hit that we require, and I am a fan of the RN getting the carriers!! I'm sure cancelling Trident replacement & giving the RAF Tac nukes back as a 'deterrent' (if we must have one) might be an alternative....? Keef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entlim Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Cut the Mp's wage increases for a start, their allowances - and introduce Recall like in the states......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 A difficult ask, given the subject matter, but can we try & steer clear of the politics aspect as much as possible please? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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