British Phantoms

[J35 Draken]

Looking at Darius' post of his Phantom kits, it's got me thinking about what the external differences are between the different British Phantom's, the FG1, FGR2 and F4J.

Were all the F4J's without the RWR on the top of the tail? And only used by 74Sqn?

I thought the FGR2's had the RWR, but this pic suggests otherwise.

And did some of the FG1's have the RWR and others not?

Are there any other external differences between the types?

Thanks

Edited February 15, 2008 by J35 Draken

[Andy K]

A wider fuselage to accomodate the Spey engines for a start. Big job!

[TEZ]

Looking at Darius' post of his Phantom kits, it's got me thinking about what the external differences are between the different British Phantom's, the FG1, FGR2 and F4J.

Were all the F4J's without the RWR on the top of the tail? And only used by 74Sqn?

I thought the FGR2's had the RWR, but this pic suggests otherwise.

And did some of the FG1's have the RWR and others not?

Are there any other external differences between the types?

Thanks

Hi Draken,

Regarding the FG1 and FGR2, all were manufactured without the RWR housing. This was retrofitted from 1974/5 onwards when the aircraft went for major overhaul at the MUs (Holme on Spalding Moor and St Athan). This was a slow business and there were examples of FGR2s still without the RWR into the early to mid 1980s. 892 NAS FG1s were the early recipients of the RWR housings, but did not have the ILS aerials found on each side of the tail of RAF FGR2s. These were retrofitted once they transferred to the RAF in 1978. The Phantom Training Flight (RN/RAF unit) FG1s were however not equipped with the RWR. The transitional period of retrofitting these tail mods (RWR and ILS aerials) saw some examples fitted with ILS but without RWR and vice versa !

On the subject of 74 squadron, who were the only operators of 'Js', none had the FG1/FGR2 RWR. A part from one 'J', all had intake RHAWS housings but these as far as I know were empty. The F4 J (UK) RHAWS fairings situated on the trailing edge of the tail, above the rudder, varied in shape from one aircraft to another. 74 squadron eventually re-equipped with FGR2s, complete with RWR.

Andrew

Edited February 15, 2008 by TEZ

[J35 Draken]

Wow that's brilliant Andy, thank you! I was really confused about the whole RWR situation, even more so when I found a pic of 2 FGR2's, one with the RWR and one without!

Aside from the lack of RWR on the J, I didn't notice the lack of ILS aerials and that they had RHAWS fairings on the tail.

[jaxngee]

...just FYI there are also differences in the undercarriage too, mostly nosewheels and associated doors, the navy one ie FG1s had a double scissors on the leg so as the aircraft with the fiercer engines could be launched at a steeper rake on the catapult, and if you look at any navy fg1 you'll see bigger front bay doors and a different arrangement of lights.Aaaaaaand I think the Fgr2s were built without the catapult hooks under the wings, I'd reccommend the verlinden close-up on the british phantom, explanations and text are poor but if you really scour the pix its superb for details.Or even the Aeroguides no 13 and 25

[Gary West]

Dean - you must have a look through my many Phantom books next time your over, it will explain it all.

[tompot]

Also the FG1's had a slotted stabilator.

[J35 Draken]

Cool, thanks guys. Really didn't realise there were so many differences between the types.

[MikeC]

There's also the US designation angle. Quite simply:

F-4K = Phantom FG1

F-4M = Phantom FGR2.

Someone who should have known better once swore blind to me that "F-4K" meant the RN version before the RWR was fitted, "Phantom FG1" meant the same aircraft post RWR, and similarly for the F-4M/FGR2. Just goes to show how many "facts" are actually misinformation.

Strangely, I seem to recall that was how Fujimi described their various boxings.

[MikeC]

And of course, the F-4J was a straight J with J-79 engines and all.

Strange that it was never referred to as the "Phantom F(whatever)3"

[Richard E]

There were some differences in cockpit layouts as well.

[J35 Draken]

And of course, the F-4J was a straight J with J-79 engines and all.

Strange that it was never referred to as the "Phantom F(whatever)3"

That's interesting. I was looking at on A.net today at British Phantom pics and all the F4J's were listed as Phantom F3 (F4J). I suppose F3 is what it would have been designated as had they not kept the F-4J(UK) designation the Americans gave them.

[dahut]

That's interesting. I was looking at on A.net today at British Phantom pics and all the F4J's were listed as Phantom F3 (F4J). I suppose F3 is what it would have been designated as had they not kept the F-4J(UK) designation the Americans gave them.

There seems to be confusion. It seems they did carry the designation F.3, officially. But it also seems that it didn't stick, because the Tornado F.3 was coming on and to avoid confusion, F-4J(UK) was used.

This is from the 'Thunder and Lightnings' site:

F.3 155529 at Duxford, 17th April 2005; author

Duxford's Phantom F-4J was built in 1967 and entered service with the US Navy in March 1968. While based aboard the USS America this aircraft operated for ten months in the Vietnam war zone and in November 1972 alone flew 88 hours of combat missions. It was subsequently transferred to the Royal Air Force as ZE359 in 1984, serving with 74 Squadron, and at the end of its RAF service was flown to Duxford in 1991 and restored in USN colours for display in the American Air Museum. Information current as of 17/04/2005.

From the same site:

In the usual "You couldn't make it up" style of procurement, the RAF ended up buying some more Phantoms - off-the-shelf F-4Js recently retired by the US Navy! After all the fuss of producing UK specific versions, the best performing UK-operated Phantoms would turn out to be more or less stock F-4Js with only minor modifications made. They even had improved J79 engines, reducing the famous Phantom smoke trail to levels similar to those of the Spey-equipped F-4Ks and F-4Ms. Designated as F.3s, this didn't really catch on and they were more usually referred to simply as F-4J(UK)s.

I say: "Whatever." F4-J(UK) will do and will keep you out of a lot of debates.

[J35 Draken]

Thanks David, I think I'll just stick to calling it then F-4J(UK) then!