ted angus

Mark I have send you a second PM with a pic of llanwrog I just found a few minutes ago on Getty

Hi Mark, I am totally convinced the colour illustration on David W Earls publication is artist licence. Throughtout my 39 yrs service I researched RAF vehicles and everything associated with them and have continued to do so since I left in 2004. During my 14 years at Leuchars the various TMs over the years gave me unlimited access to there albums and collection of publications - what a top bunch !! The best quality reproductions of the RAF Llanwrog team's vehicles is on Flickr and to me they all look a very dull finish- except the black and yellow hi vis markings. In addition to the Llanwrog shots on Flicker I have a Getty image which shows 2 ambos beside the MR vehicles and to me the Jeep appears to match the base colour on the Standard Ambo in the background. The Jeeps would have arrived in US OD and been repainted into SCC 2 as required by their condition. - and not on a whim . I believe the Humber would have also been in SCC 2. Do you have the Getty shot I am referring to ?? if not I could send it as a PM. At the end of the day modelling is for enjoyment so should you choose to go RAF B/G then that is fine, as long as you enjoy your projects. Regards Ted.

I served from 1964 to 2004 and have seen the UK convoys many many times. The front mounted exhaust on the Hippo is mounted directly in front of, and in line with the front axle : the tail pipe is very short and points to the offside. It is rarely visible on photographs. I don't think the tractor for trailers type Z is relevant to the Red Beard convoys. I understand the Z trailer was the warhead carrier for the Thor Missile system and being a full trailer its tractor needed ballast to give stability and braking traction, water was the normal ballast . Its possible that the tractor in the late Mick Bells drawing was produced in very small numbers for Thor. The 2 pipes on top of the higher rear portion are an over flow and the other a fill pipe. Additionally this water was also available to the convoy fire tender. Turning to the photo of 3 Hippos leaving Barnham , this was the last convoy to leave there and its 1972. I would guess the 3rd Hippo is purely a water carrier, the convoy fire tender based on a Morris LD van is immediately behind the 3rd Hippo. I have a picture showing the tanks in a Hippo but haven't worked out how to use the insert image facility. TED.

CMSC ( later produced by Kingfisher Miniatures ) did a highly detailed 1/76th TM, both 4x4 and 6x6 with and without CALM I have some in my stash let me know if your interested TED.

Gents, could anyone please tell me the correct grey for the pair of Islanders based at Northolt. regards TED

I think for MG they would have been in the trailers, especially with the Fld Amb.

Thanks Arie - That's the picture I better buy that book anyone ordered from UK any problems using paypal ? Graham never seen a water can on board- I think on market garden it would have been fuel water could and was readily availible locally ? but that is just my assumption from all I have seen and read

The pioneer tools go onto the front face of the bumper- re white crosses on the cans- according to WD instructions water cans were to be SCC2 with white markings.; this regulation appears to be still in force til the late 1950s !!!!!!! re the ammo for the 6 pounder boxes could be carried both on the bumper and bonnet- or boxed on the bumper and 3 tube sets on the bonnet. Some nice work can't wait to start my project; I have just got my SHQ miniatures order of figures to supplent some from milicast. - I aim to recreate the famous picture of the 2nd Staffs on their way from their LZ to Arhnem with the 6 pdr at the rear. ted

Hi Graham , there is a lot of excellent info on the tinternet, I managed to get copies of both the written orders and workshop drawings for the modification for service with airborne units - we're talking North West Europe-- D Day, Arnhem and then the crossing of the Rhine. Rear corner grab handles removed and in some cases the side ones as well. rear jerry can holder removed and replaced by 3 -one between the front seats and one behind each front seat. pioneer tools fitted to new front bumper- this was reinforced and had a centre mounted tow hitch to enable it to be pulled by another jeep. depending on role spare wheel mounted on front bumper , if towing 6 pounder the spare wheel remained at the back but the mount was moved 6 inches further to the offside, on the front bumper shell boxes were carried. Steering wheels were modified to be easily removed for glider loading. On the 3 Operations I mentioned the large pintle rear tub mounted browning was not a feature; the recce lads had a Vickers K mounted forward of the windscreen. the Recce also had a frame on the rear to carry extra stowage. it goes on and on. Most had a triangular tow frame stowed upright on the back this was for use in towing broken down jeeps it connected to the hitch on the front bumper. hope this helps TED

I have the Milicast Airborne version of the 6 pdr - whilst I haven't built it yet it looks a very accurate reproduction. re The Airfix offerings The Jeep needs some work to be truly Airborne and the trailer supplied with it was only used in small numbers by UK & Commonwealth forces; I have a lot of research into our Airborne and this US produced trailer does not show up any where with them. hope this is helpful TED

Yes it was RAF, 51 MT Company. My father was a driver mechanic in the REs his company had at least one of the 10 tonners; it was either with 279 Fld Co 15 Div or 150 Field Park Co & Arm Div. normally ran as a flat without the dropsides or tailboard.

Gents, Although I have passed much info to oldgit on another forum I feel I must jump in and correct some of the posts above: The Questions relates mainly to BoB /early WW2 Fighter Command ; At onset of hostilities the standard RAF vehicle & ground equipment colour was RAF Blue Grey BSC 33 later renumbered BSC 633. This is from AMOs. There is a mass of photo evidence that the vast majority of assetts that went to France, and that which was used in UK during the period 1939 to early 41 was camo painted. It is possible that some building paints may have been suitable: following that line of thought the colours used on buildings were from a Standardised Civil Defence camo paint range which later became the war emergency BS 987. THe colours in the CD range directly relate to the subsequent BS 987 range of SCC colours. Last year in a TV documentary about BoB pilots some 8mm home movie film was shown and camo vehicles in colours - Dark Green and an Earthy Brown similar to the aircraft colours were clearly seen ; At the time a brown No 2 was availible in the CD building range-- this colour was the SCCNo 2 when BSC 987 was published . During this period the Army had standardised on Khaki Green No 3 with light or dark green as the disruptor for their camo scheme- so it is very likely many RAF units followed this path; ( In 1941 the RAF formally published an AMO on the subject and adopted the Army colours and scheme patterns. For the rest of hostilities AMO mirrored Army instructions. ) The RAF had very few Austin K2 ambulances during WW2 , in 40 years of research I have only identified a handful , firstly in Italy 1n 1944 then later with 2TAF. , The standard aerodrome ambulance in UK during the BoB was the Albion 4x2. Some older Morris Commercials were still evident and RAF Fowlmere certainly had one The most common fire tenders during the BoB were the Fordson Sussex 6x4 equipped with 3 x 30 gallon froth extinquishers, The Crossley 6x4 Teardrop from 1936/7 and the Crossley 6x4 from 1939 which carried the same set up as was later to be seen on the Crossley 4x4 and the Fordson WOT1. The Austin K6 tender in the Airfix kit NEVER served with the RAF or RN- it served with the Ministry of civil Aviation having been built in 1946 to support civil aviation which was restating after the wartime restrictions. The RAF did have a tender with an identical basck end to the Airfix kit , but this was an a Fordson WOT1A/1 chassis and was built during 1945/6 after the war had ended. There were no formal crew transports in the BoB, I have photos of Fordson tippers, Humber Snipe utilities , private cars etc etc in use during that period. The Bedford OXC with bus trailer was built for the ministry of supply to transport workers to and from and around large production sites including MAP aerodromes, but, they were produced after the BoB period. The first RAF aircrew coaches were on the Fordson WOT1 6x4 they were also mounted on the Austin K6 and Dodge chassis, BW models No 315 typifies this vehicle have a look at his website. Runway caravans were black and white , they were not a feature of BoB airfields, indeed much later in the war and then rarely seen on fighter aerodromes. Grass cutting was a Air Ministry works dept task , agricultural tractors with gangs of mowers were standard and there is an AMO which required them to be painted yellow or orange !!!!! yes during the said period !!!! Mike Starmers books are a great reference, the RAF kept in step with the ARMY from 41, bear in mind when referring to AMOs or Army Council instructions ( as repeated in Mike's books) that AMOs and ACI could take up to 3 months between beginning to write the relevant order and the order being distributed to the Stations and units- so schemes would in some cases have already been promulgated to units by faster means eg telex signals or letter. Good luck TED

The Jetranger was never used by the RAF/RN or army. the one in these pics started life as F71 TCW built by Carmichal on a Unipower chassis for BAE Warton. it was later rebuilt by Angloco -- I am noy aware of its current operator or location.?? TED

Eventually got in touch with my contact. Firstly re the Pantone - tapes for the graphics machine are 5503, on the tins of paint is 550. Re the new Green - some small repair /touchup jobs with the new paint have been undertaken by the paintshop. Nothing recorded from the tin at the time but my contact will speak with the REs to see what is on the tin. It appears the RAF are also receiving MT/GSE in the new scheme and they are currently awaiting full details of the new scheme. TED

Thanks for that link, I quoted Sky blue I should have said Pale Blue BSC 111 and this is a very close match to 5503 according to the link. I think all my contacts down at Leuchars have desserted can't get in touch with any of them today. TED

http://www.alcvehicles.com/index.php Dave et al. have a good delve into the attached. When I left the Service BARLOW were looking aftere all mech handling gear but a new consortium now provides all the UK's military plant. I have had a quick look at their website and the colour is still mentioned as NATO green, however I have established an eggshell finish is now used instead of matt. From my previous experience with BS 241 I know many greens and other darker colours take on a totally different appearance with a change of sheen. When we got the first GSE & MT in BS 241 semi gloss I couldn't believe just how different it was to the matt BS 241 we had previously used on many of our fast jets. I have already asked some questions down at Leuchars and tomorrow I will e mail ALC - it will be nice to get a definative answer for my note book ! TED

I believe the Florian MFVs are still here; The lads who do the grahics are tearing their hair out, all the colour tapes for the graphics PC system is going to Pantone but all the aircraft markings produced on the machine are still called for in BS code - Sign of the times the left not knowing what the right is doing ! I am going to a presentation on base on thursday I will try and make a new contact at the RE regt - all my old contacts in the RE/REME outfit in 57 hangar have either moved on or retired. Regards

I noticed the new green on an IVECO 6x6 with rear mounted Hiab/Atlas type crane when they were laying the mats for the airshow park & rides. There are some really unusual things happening with colours in the MoD at the Moment. For Gulf war 2 we (the RAF) adopted BS380 for vehicles and GSE in desert regions. You may be aware that this is the the UK equivalent of FS 30279 - the colour we used on aircraft and some MT & GSE in Gulf war 1. However some of our (RAF) MT assetts are now under army management (again) , this includes all fire tenders- the revamp of the RIV and MFV for service in Afgan now includes a desert paint job in the Army's standard desert colour BS 361 Lt Stone !! Returning to the new green, it could be matt BS224 Deep Bronze green- some RE gear remained in BS224 along side BS 285 NATO green. . OR it may not be a BS colour, You may have noticed the new light blue signs around Leuchars, there is a big one by where the spotters park near the guardbridge end crash gate- I expected these new signs to be BS 101 Sky but no the RAF are moving to the PANTONE range- I believe they have chosen PMS 5503 as the RAF's new corporate colour !!! Some German vehicles are in the 3 colour scheme others in a single green colour- The RE green could be from the RAL range as it looks identical to the single green German finish. I will endeavour to find out more. TED RAF Balmullo.

Hi Graham, yes spot on. Mike S had done a lot of research, but beware of his references on the MAFVA site, Mike has superceded some of his earlier work in the latest editions of his books. His work is always ongoing. KG3 G4 & G5 he now no longer links to the bronze shades. Indeed from the first formal promulgation the RAF followed the Army's lead, both at home and overseas. The first formally promulgated RAF vehicle base colour was Khaki Green No 3 with disruptive pattern in Nobels dark tarmac green No 4 or light Green G5 . I have found earlier (pre aug 1941) references at the TNA that station commanders were buying paint to cam vehicles prior to this date (aug 41), and of course masses of photo evidence of cam finish on RAF assetts in France pre Dunkirk and accross UK in the BoB period. The problem period regarding RAF colour shades is from Sept 39 to aug 41 ?? The SCC series colours that became familiar on vehicles eg SCC2, 1A etc were in BS 987c issued in 1942,with SCC 15 coming in 1943; however these SCC colour shades were originally detailed in Spec CDCE/987C and this dates back to pre hostilities. They were colour shades originally selected for building and facility camouflage. - it may well be that commanders purchased colours for their vehicles and ground equipment in these shades - of course not in building paint but in finishes specifically for metal & wood. I have now seen several short pieces of amateur cine film taken during the BoB period that actually shows vehicles in a green & brown finish not wholly dissimilar to the aircraft colours. Unfortunately much promulgation of info during that very difficult period was by letter and signal and it wasn't until events slowed down that the formal use of AMOs for such matters resumed. Even in more modern times, in the run ups to Gulf wars one & two we received our instructions for painting MT & GSE by telex signals, some that ran to 20 pages and then by letter. In twenty years time modellers will search in vain for the info in formal documents !! thankfully I kept my little note books. Returning to the K2, the RN used the ambulance and the RAF had a lot of K2 GS trucks - some with generator equipment, and with box bodies for use as mobile Elec & instrument workshops on airfields especially in the commands with multi engined aircraft. finally the Civil Defence services had both K2 ambulances finished in dark admiralty grey, GS trucks used by the rescue services initially in cam but later in Dk Ad grey and then SCC2 . The War Organisation of the St Johns Ambulance & British Red Cross had hundreds of K2 ambulances in military colours but bearing London County Council reg numbers for ambulance convoy work both in UK and later in Europe post D Day.

It has been documented many times on many forums of the inaccuracies of the Airfix Emergency set. From April 1941 ALL RAF vehicles were to be in camo finish( a small number of cars were exempt) , although most vehicles were actually camo finished much earlier. Firstly the crash tender. It is known as "The 1945 Monitor Type". It entered service after WW2 had ended . It was mounted on a Fordson WOT1/1A chassis ( with extended cab) for the RAF and RN. The RAF examples were delivered in RAF Blue Grey Semi-Gloss ; The reason was : Soon after the end of WW2 the RAF decided to go back to preWW2 colours ASAP, however red had not yet been decided on for RAF fire appliances. The formal introduction of Blue Grey was april 1946, although many new deliveries were in B/G between mid 1945 and april 46. . Gloss Signal Red for RAF fire appliances was not formally authorised until october 1949. The vehicle depicted in the Airfix kit is an Austin K6, whilst the K6 was used in very large numbers by the RAF it never saw RAF or RN service as a 1945 Monitor type fire engine. However in 1946/7 the newly formed Ministry of Civil Aviation ordered a number of 1945 Monitor Type appliances from Airfoam Ltd, which were to be mounted on the K6 chassis as there was a large number of surplus chassis cabs lying in MoS depots. The example Airfix based the kit on was an ex Min Civ Aviation example. This information was passed to Airfix at the time the kit was first announced- 1968 if my grey cells are functioning correctly., If I recall correctly the example they used was lying on a civvy airfield in Essex. its civiliian reg number is PE1301 and that is the one provided in the kit- it is not a military reg number.. Turning to the Ambulance, very few examples of this ambulance saw service with the RAF in WW2, a handful were used in the Italy campiagn but seem to have been with a mobile medical unit which was not an airfield based outfit. Post WW2 they became more common on RAF airfields with some continueing until 1954 when replaced by the Austin K9 crash ambulance. Having said all that If the builder is happy with his model- then that is all that matters. Happy Modelling TED

It looks like BBMF will not be here bad weather down south cited as the reason. TED p.s. The rain or was it a monsoon in 91 got me a new No 1 !!!

LIRR will look different to ther naked eye if compared to IRR or SHR of the same colour. Correct reflectancy both in the IR waveband and to the eye will only be acieved if the top coat is correctly applied to a substrate that has received primer/undercoat required for the scheme in use. Once patch repairs start it is nearly impossible to get even the correct top coat to match.

Graham, at Laarbruch we were operating both Jag and Torn GR1 at the same time when I was there . Both aircraft used the same paint indeed items from both types undergoing work in ASF would be in the paintshop at the same time and be refinished from the same tin. putting paint chips onto a large surface gives a flawed result. Also types of hanger lighting dramatically changes the colour appearance as does the reflectivity of the paint. A good painter can even get a sheen with matt paint if he wants to be mischievous. Its an awful subject and there are as many pitfalls in modelling as there are using the real stuff. Just compare the differences between manufacturers of shades that they all claim to be 641/241. One thing you may have witnessed was the same colour using different types of paint. Certainly in the 1990s we had acrylic. 3 part Poly, 2 part Poly and synthetic in use at the same time. For overnight quick drying patch repairs we would roll on acrylic-- it looked nothing like the original poly finish. regards yours in paint TED

Edgar, All AM/ MAP standard colours still in HM forces use were included into the 1964 edition of BS 381c and the old AM/MAP standards ommitted from Service use. It was purely an admin action the colour remaining unchanged. For your note the number 641 was actually issued in error; the first number 6 refers to colour group "grey" . In the 1980 edition it was corrected to 241 . In 1964 Dark Earth from the MAP standard was given the BSC number 450, it too was wrong and in 1980 it was corrected to 350. More than one model paint manfacturer markets both 641 and 241 after 39 years in the RAF playing with real paint I can tell you they are one and the same.

Gents beware, Mike Starmers research is ongoing. Some of the info in the MAFVA resources file is now superceded. I have a copy of his UK & N.W. Europe camo book (2010 edition) which notes Khaki Green No 3 plus G4 Green or G5 green as the disruptive were introduced during 1939- these are no longer the bronze greens as originally thought. There is also a lot of photographic evidence that all RAF MT embarked for France in 1939 was in the same or similar colours to the Army. Photo evidence also shows increasing use of camo colours on RAF vehicles in UK as soon as mobilisation was called in 1939. There are documents in TNA Kew noting units have been obtaining there own supplies of paint. I would expect that the first batches AEC 6x6 bowsers and some of the early QLs would have been delivered in KG 3 as the RAF did not promulgate the use of SCC2 until late 1942. in mid 1941 G4 was repleced by Nobels dark tarmac green No 4 ; this can be replicated by Revel 78 or Humbrol 67. KG 3 is availible from white ensign models (WEM ARB03), SCC2 can be replicated by 6 parts Revel 84 & 5 parts Revel 86. (By the way the 16 to 5 mix for SCC2 in the MAFVA file is a typo.) TED