GrouchoMark2

I recently had cause to stare at a Gannet for 6 hours-no way it's 'Sky' colour could be described as any shade of blue- sky blue, duck egg blue, greeny blue, turquoise or whatever!!! Good for you Maltadefender-go for it. Groucho (now possibly colourblind)

Ahh the old films and how I miss Margaret -which is pretty hard considering her size. It's how I got interested in aircraft - meeting those Russian transatlantic aviators in New York. Brave guys-they set off and had to turn back halfway when they ran out of a gas then they tried again and got threequarters of the way before turning back as they were running out of a gas again. I digress Wasn't aware of the the Aviation Workshop PR book profiles but must buy it as PRs are in train. The photo I am familiar with and Paul Lucas type interpretation would definately say that T's LSG was lighter at the back than the front. MAM depicts N's spinner as black but who can prove you wrong with blue. I recently built FTF (we do seem to run in parallel) and followed the discussion on blue and red flights-Skalski's organisation seems to have had a similar policy-so go for it-who can prove you wrong. The yellow edges certainly seem to confim originally DFS and they have sharp edges suggesting no 'erk' repaint so your theory on faded DG has credence. Mind you I'm firmly of the opinion that if a colour has faded from green to brown it's now a brown plane (official or not). DFS certainly seems to suggest MSG-pity though Interesting point in the photo is that T's undercarriage is up but tail wheel down. Were they operated separately ? The canopies look small in relation to my Squadron one-rethink need there when I rebuild mine. I await your chosen hues with bated breath. best Groucho

Hi Jon-fabulous work going on here as usual. I'm particularly interested as I built 208's TZ233 'T' a year or so ago. It made a guest appearance at Elvington last week -some distant photos on the show thread . However I became dissatisfied after seeing a 'desert' Typhoon at the show and decided mine was too dark (dark earth and lightened dark slate grey with MSG undersides). My model (aeroclub/academy) has now been stripped back and reprimed. Soooo I'm interested in the colours you propose for yours. I'm sure you'll know that there are colour profiles of 'N' and 'T' (four view) in MAM 03/2008 but the colours depicted differ wildly between the two profiles. Any thoughts on the painting stage ? (I have seen it suggested, but can't remember where, that these machines would have Azure undersides just like the regular desert machines-would certainly be attractive). Regards Groucho

Great photos Phil-lovely ships until they stuck that bl...y great hangar thingy on the back Groucho

Don't know if everyone on here is familiar with Kostas Katseas on M W but take a look at his Essex on today's 'whats new'-he is to MW what Phil is to us (London based as well I believe}. I can't remember seeing a finer carrier model (although can't speak for accuracy) and very few better ship models of any type -http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/cv/cv-10/350-kk/kk-index.html. Air Group Commander Groucho

Tut tut As a pilot yourself you should know these were always parked flaps down. If they suddenly bounced in the air they needed all the lift they could get. Groucho (flying inspector)

That's good enough for me Tommy. One B&W coming up. Prove me wrong. Thanks Edgar-keep up the research Steve-With regard to DVV I think the fact a knowledgable guy like you mistook the scheme proves that it's nigh on impossible to interpret from B&W photos. Even colour seems to generate huge disputes. Other discussions have argued whether desert scheme or DFS or TLS or sometimes TSS (I'm getting used to these TLA's so I thought I'd be clever and use some). I really think that these discussions go nowhere as no-one changes their position and smoking guns are rare as Groucho girlfriends. Mind you Edgar's note above on B&W is as good an SG as we'll get. Mind you I do love to follow these discussions! regards Groucho (looking for a Mk 1 kit)

Second photo has a mix of flat top and rounded canopies so possibly in middle of changeover? with erks not had time to paint. Planes have no fin flashes and roundels all over the place. So much for painting and marking to a given standard-and that's a peacetime photo. Groucho

Thats DVV EE602 built mid '42. VC so DG/OG or mixed/MSG hence the contrast. Earlier in thread I asked if any evidence of black white undersides lasting to BOB in view of lack of sky or DEB/DEG or whatever paint. Does anyone have any knowledge?

Great to get all these clarifications- the knowledge and ability even to date a photo and recognise an unnumbered aircraft are amazing to me-thats what these forums are and should be about. One question Edgar If there was a serious shortage of titanine/sky on 10 June 1940 presumably a significant number of 'black and white fighters' remained through the BOB period or alternatively 'erk' mixes were the order of the day with all the implications thereof. Groucho

I find myself more and more confused by this. That aircraft looks to be a Mk1 or a Mk2 going by armament bays. Don't know the codes but don't look like squadron codes so training perhaps?. The article says 1942/3 ish (photo looks 'late summer by grass colour and skimpy vests) so not an operational aircraft by then but long after DFS introduced. I've just been comparing the photo with ''that'' photo of FZD and the upper 'greys' and browns look just the same to me- on my monitor. On my monitor LT looks mixed grey and a rich dark earth (the 'mixed grey' though must surely be dark green in reality-still has early roundels and tail flash so not overall repainted). The L T characters look to be BOB period grey (just like my Tamiyas) and is very different to the tailband which in turn is clearly different to the underside which look 'sky' to me. The article claims photo is evidence of sky blue undersides-I wish it was but not on my screen. If the plane is not operational why does it have the tailband and why are they re-arming it. Perhaps a small 'vignette' for the photographer LT has holes for IFF but apparently no aerials. The radio mast doesn't have the prong or apparently an aerial to the fin so not BOB period I'm assuming (ooh that word). ah questions questions Groucho in a flat spin

Thanks for that Edgar. I don't know if any lowbacks were ever in the HA scheme (would make an interesting ICM scheme) but the spitfire in the film is definitely a green/grey over something:- not the HA scheme. The plane has also been polished within an inch of it's life and is positively gleaming so maybe early post war film?. The shots show the aircraft being wheeled out, taking off and landing so you get a look from many angles. The trouble with History Channel ilk is that they flash from shot to shot quickly to disguise the stock footage which pads out much of their output. (Off topic I seem to remember seeing a Zara engage half a dozen different vessels in one memorable warship programme). Personnel garb is what I would call typical of late war/early post war so I don't think it's a late restoration and the Hurricane footage looks very authentic early war. Unfortunately I have no means of recording or I would try to get a screen capture. I believe the programme has been repeated quite regularly in recent times so someone out there may get a chance of a screen capture. Whichever way I look at it the underside 'grey' is darker than the upper grey camouflage which is high contrast to the green. Groucho -in a blue mood(duck egg of course)

Love the concept Thanos-well done. GZ is one of the great naval 'what if's'. Could have been in service with the Bismarck, providing air cover from Swordfish attacks (substantially larger ship than Brit CV's). Denmark Strait could have seen the damaged POW finished off by Stukas. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau join up etc etc No Force Z ? Channel Dash ? The what ifs are endless A very confused Groucho ( now I wonder what the universe is expanding into-and what's after that-and that-and that??? )

Just been watching 'Fighters of WW11' on (cue funny Irish accent) Movies for Mernnnnnnn. Have also followed some of Paul Lucas' musings in MAM regarding Spitfire colours. Recent postings on colour regarding Duck Egg blue/green have also been of interest. I recently commented on one of the threads that 'when I were a lad' we painted model Spit undersides a definite pale blue. Indeed I only really renewed my interest in aviation a couple of years ago. At that time (40 years on from my previous interest) I was surprised to discover that undersides of BOB Spits and Hurris were painted 'Sky'-completely new to me. On the programme in question there are a number of Spitfires and Hurricanes -the colour Hurricane appear to show a definite pale blue hue-just like the shot on one of those threads of the duck eggs-I know I know. -extensive shots of a Mk9/Mk16 low back Spitfire-freshly painted and highly polished. This plane has an upper grey which is far lighter than the underside which appears to be ..............PRU blue. Roundels appear in perfect register and colour so none of that 'funny film' ortho type distortion. The upper grey looks a shade or two lighter even than MSG. Now I don't know when these shots were taken-they could be well after the war-recreations with poor research?- but food for thought. Anyone else seen this and can comment-usual caveats as this is probably a History Channel production with all the usual implications. Incidentally prog worth seeing for airborne shots of Hurricane, Spitfire, E E Lightning, Meteor, Hunter and Javelin together and comment from Gabreski. Groucho (who knows he could soon be known as Groucho Troll)-crisps at the ready.

Gorgeous build Phil of probably my favourite class of 'modern' warship (new Darings being my least favourite). Even without significant weathering it has that 'look'-superb. Interesting that you started the thread on the Dragon poll when with your skills who needs manufacturer kits! Shame it won't be at Elvington Best wishes Groucho

Lovely choice of ship. Saw the old 'STB' film on Film 4 and almost inspired to restart my half done Hood. There's currently an interesting debate on Model Warships[main forum-POW) regarding deck colour at the time of the action. Alan Raven has pretty well proved she had grey painted decks whilst in dockyard hands but the discussion consensus seems to be that they had been holystoned back to natural teak once handed over to the navy. Several good photos in the discussion thread. HTH-good luck with your build. Groucho

I'm always amazed at the lack of attention to the RN/RAN WWII fleet and the Imperial German Navy WW1 fleet. Probably some of the most charismatic, attractive and battle engaged of all warships. E.g Ark Royal (OK there was a 1/600), Eagle, County, Town, York (surely Exeter has to be the most overdue of them all), Sydney, Derfflinger, Scharnhorst and Seydlitz to name a few . I understand that the Dragon Benson is the maritime equivalent kit to the Tamiya 1/32 Spit and the new Scharnhorst seems to have had input from knowledgeable experts so any encouragement to go RN/IGN won't go amiss and Dragon are guaranteed to do a good job. Incidentally I've been perusing the WWII cruisers site (sorry-useless at linkys but a google will get it) and they have introduced some fantastic colour profiles (art section) including colour plates of wartime schemes for most of the County's (check out those pink splinter schemes for the Berwick)-apologies if flagged up before. Adding new ones all the time. Usual disclaimer. Enjoy-Groucho

When I made my first Airfix-early 60's, my recall is that the instructions referred to DEB and all box art was far more of an underside blue (akin to the ME109) than a green. My point being that in the fifties, when these items were being developed, there were still a huge number of people around who still had recent memories of the real thing. Maybe my memory is wrong-any old box art or instructions out there. Groucho

Hmmm -not sure about that Kopro drawing. Appears to have a mark VI nose grafted onto a MkVIII body:- 3 outlet exhaust , gun heater tube, high rear canopy and no rails, voltage reg behind seat. Very misleading Groucho

I have built half a dozen ICM spits and converted several more (believe it or not to XII, XI, XVII) and maybe the following will help a little:- -MKs VII, VIII, IX are all the same kit apart from decals (see below) -low back is possibly the best moulding -none of mine have included a retractable style tailwheel (does any accessory firm make these ?-Hannants don't seem to have them) -a panel line is missing on the underside of one wing as compared to the other side -there is definitely, to my eye, something a little too curvy about the rear fuselage-nice but not right (Airfix seem good at this -esp old MkV) -the engine cover is very tall and narrow compared with every other manufacturers MKIX kits-rightly or wrongly-Edgar! -only one style of engine cover-sort of a hybrid of mid and late style -decals-Britmodeller should start a competition with a £1M prize for first person to apply walkway markings intact !! (this is my definition of the impossible) Build tips -The engine bulkhead is not too wide but it is too thick-feather the rear edges so it slips fully into the designed slots in the fuselage sides and it then supports the lower engine cover/intake mount and spreads the fuselage correctly-but constantly check it's not forcing the two halves apart -don't recommend you cement the interior structure until after wing fitted (it prevents the fuselage providing correct dihedral) -always fit the engine frames (even if omitting the engine-recommended as it doesn't fit!) using the grooves on the engine side panels-these provide ledges for the top and bottom covers to connect to -wing halves are thin and best fixed together with slow super glue rather than cement which can easily distort the flap area-Ask me how I know this -the wing tips fit better if you thin down the tab which slips into the wing and otherwise forces the two halves apart leaving a ledge -elevator fit leaves a ledge at the junction with the fin-file and test fit before cementing -undercarriage stance is a little steep and benefits from shortening by about 1mm-paper clips make good oleos -carefully test fit the radiator grilles and radiators before gluing-grilles will probably need trimming top and sides to avoid lifting the radiators from the wing join None of this is insurmountable and a nice looking plane is the result-I like em Good luck and hope this helps Now where's my cigar-can't find anything on this workbench Groucho