Michael louey

Hi, Red Roo models in Australia produces some decals in 1/72 for the Mk XIVe. (An example is their item RRD7222). There are seperate sheets for 451 and 453 Squadron RAAF. From the same source is news that they won't be getting any new stock of Tally Ho, so it appears there is not likely to be more decals from that source in the forseeable future. Regards Michael

Hi Paula, I had a look at my 2 squadron histories and they don't contain much more information than you have found independently. They do confirm the identity of the pilot/plane and crash location. One of the books 'Defeat to Victory' by John Bennett (Published by the RAAF) does give some more information on the pilot and flight. Doug Davidson crashed returning to England from 453 Squadrons base in Wunstorf (near Hannover) in Germany. Extra details about the pilot are: Sqd Ldr D. M. Davidson DFC, 402321, 33 Sqd RAF, 450 Sqdn RAAF, 65 Sqd RAF, 451 Sqd RAAF, command 453 Sqd RAAF 1945 - 1946, Warehouseman of Normanhurst NSW, b. Sydney, 13 Dec 1919, Killed in Aircraft accident 6 Jan 1946. He was a very popular C.O. and his replacement Wing Commander Tod Hilton DFC organised 2 minutes silence for Sqd Ldr Davidson on taking command. If you find any photos of the 109 in your research, please pop back and post them! Cheers Michael

Hello Paula, Just saw your reply this morning. Sorry, I can't help you with any more details about the crash other than what has already been documented in the discussions. Hopefully the other guys on the different forums can help more (Andy Saunders is very experienced and knowledgable regarding archeological matters). I would be suprised if there is much in terms of remaining artefacts at the site of the 109 crash as the plane looks very intact in all the photos I've seen of it in Australia and post recovery in England. It was more of a forced landing than a 'crash'. I may be able to help you more with the Spitfire crash as I do have a couple of histories of 453 Squadron, though I doubt they would have more detail than already suppllied by your friend. I am certain they won't have any detailed crash grid references for example. Best Wishes Michael

Hi Dave, Thanks for your update - I also got a response from Lynn on Hyperscale as follows (Note Lynn's compliment to you The info in my lists came from Jim Perry, and he generally adds notations such as those you cite if a photo is visible of the aircraft. In this case, I shortened his descriptive text but noted there wasn't a reference to the white tips- there's no mention one way or the other in the info I had access to at the time. Here's the full text of his note in the database: "Cowl is yellow with masked out area for yellow Tatzelwurm. Rudder is weiss. yellow spinner tip. On STARBOARD only is a small schwarz disk with a weiss 'X' behind cross." Here's what Jim lists as his source for that entry: Prien/Stemmer, Stab und I./JG 3, p.521 Les Messerschmitt/D'Angleterre, Payne/Kit p.39 color SAM, May 85, p.366 photo. I would implicitly trust anything the esteemed Mr. Wadman offers on the topic, and it sounds as though Mr. Cornwell has a copy of the Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report which should be regarded as the absolute best available written primary reference source for the aircraft. I hope this helps, and good luck on your project! Cheers, Lynn This closes off the loop as to where the info comes from however I only have the SAM reference which shows a new view in Australia but no tactical markings. I don't suppose you would have the other 2 references? I'll try out on LEMB where there might be a forum group more likely to have these items. Ref 2 above would be most interesting if it included a colour photo on pg 39, though a profile would have much less weight (I have googled the book and it is an old 1980 French text) Regards Michael

Hi Dave, Just when everything seemed to be down pat, a minor spanner in the works! I was skimming Lynn Ritgers 109 Pt book and it has a listing of BoB losses by JG. Against most it just has general loss details but for 0750, it had the notes - 'Yellow Cowl except for surrounds of the Yellow Tatzelwurm. White Rudder' - No mention of the white wing tips. I guess this must have been information added by Lynn (Even though I noticed you are a contributor) so I'll ask him on Hyperscale where he frequents. It does sound odd to have a mix of yellow nose and white rudder/wing tips however i guess stranger things have happened. Cheers Michael Hi Dragonlance Thanks for your contribution, there does seem to be a common theme with coloured tactical markings but the difficulty is the mix and match of combinations, thus the need to check a specific airframe. Thanks Michael

Hi Dave, Thanks for taking time to check your records. Based on the written, eyewitness and photographic evidence it appears more likely that the cowl was not white. As one of the photos of the plane show the Tatzelwurm and consistent mottle it is likely to be the original cowl, however since the wing and rudder distemper has weathered away any cowl marking would have gone the same way. Based on this I think I'll skip the white cowl. Cheers Michael

Hi David, Thanks for the update - I must admit that after rereading Peter Cornwell's reply, I can see how the tactical markings were derived. The AIR Crash report did mention the white rudder and tips (both not evident in the photos in Australia) but I missed this in my initial reading (I blame old age). I am still interested in why Ken Merrick surmised a white cowl as well (Maybe just based on his understanding of how JG3 was marking planes at the time, though if the report only says rudders and wing tips, it would be odd not to mention the cowl as well). Based on this I might leave the white cowl off, even though it would look nice . Cheers Michael

Hi to all, I'm reposting a query I made on the Luftwaffe Experten Message Board (LEMB), though I have already received a very useful reply from Peter Cornwell there. The main reason for the repost is to ask Dave Wadman if he is around as to what information he used to derive the white rudder/wing tip tactical markings on the profile in the jagdwaffe BoB book (and whether there is a chance of a white cowling as indicated by Ken Merrick. - A repeat of the post and Peter's reply is below: Note: this is the original thread - http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/i...amp;#entry53039 Hi from the Antipodes, I am researching one of the Bf109E's Wn Nr 0750 (E-4, though the canopy looks like an E-3) shot down during the Battle of Britain and sent to Australia for War Bonds duties. The aircraft, Yellow 7, was from III/JG3 and was piloted by Uffz Heinz Grabow shot down by Bob Doe. The plane is pictured in Camouflage & Markings Pt 1 by Merrick [Ref 1] and in the Jagdwaffe series (I think Pt 2 or 3 of the BoB series) by Pegg, Mombeek & Wadman [Ref 2]. The plane was brought down in Sept 1940. The views on the colour of this aircraft in these 2 publications indicate the authors have access to the AIR crash report on this aircraft. The summary of colours from Merrick is RLM 71/02 with (interpreted from the AIR report) RLM 02, 70, 71 mottle overspray (actually recorded as light green, dark green and grey). He also mentions the white rudder and cowling paint being distemper which has powdered away by the time Australian photos were taken. A profile from Jagdwaffe of this aircraft shows white wing tips and rudder (But no white on the cowling). It also shows the 'Tatzelwurm' of JG3 in White. Additional reports I have obtained from various sources are as follows: [Ref 3] - An article from Flightpath magazine Vol 10 Nr 3 by one of our local Aviation Historical Society members Bob Fripp. He saw this plane during its War Bond drive as a school child and took down notes as part of his assignment. He noted the colours in greys - his interpretation as RLM 74/75/76. He also recalled the Tatzelwurm as Yellow as was the number 7. [Ref 4] - In the book 'In Just 5 Years' (A history of Nhill airbase during WW2 by Kevin O'Reilly) includes an article from the local paper recording the arrival of the 109 in the town for the 'War Bond' drive. It noted the colours as being 'drab grays'. So to the questions - Does anyone have a copy of the AIR report for this plane (I'm hoping David Wadman is frequenting the forum ). I'd like to see what verbatim details it has on the colours, especially the extent of the white tactical markings. My own interpretation for the model I am building would be as follows: * RLM 65 lowers and Mixed Grey uppers (similar to 74/75 though they would be really 'Mixed' greys which were overpaints of the original 02/71 colours). Extensive mottling overspray in 70, 71 and one of the greys. Based on eyewitness report I think that 71/02 is out (there is a possibility they only oversprayed the 71 with grey but Bob recalls the colours as 74/75 and this impression doesn't sound like 02). The lower 65 is similar to 76 especially as it would have been extensively mottled. Mottles of 70, 71 would not be so obviously green. Bob's article notes that he could not see any green or splinter. In the photos a splinter can still be seen on the tailplanes but not on the wings or fuselage spine) * The Tatzelwurm is yellow - This should be the 'official' colour. The photos seem to show a slightly darker shade to the Tatzelwurm than the nose spinner (but the flash photography muddies up this detail). Bob Fripp has vivid memories of the 'Yellow' dragon as a child. * White on nose, wing tips and rudder. (Composite information from Merrick and Wadman & co) By the way, for those interested, the plane ended up as a stripped fuselage hulk at the scrappers in Werribee, a suburb in Melboune. There are photos in the Flighpath of it in this very sad state. The same publication also mentions that the engine has survived and is somewhere in Australia. Thanks in anticipation. Michael ---------------------- Hello Michael, The A.I.1(g) Report on this aircraft states as follows: Me.109. Brought down at Wychling on 5.9.40. Built by Erla No.750 1938 Marked yellow 7 yellow tipped spinner followed by white and grey segments. Crest white serpent, red tongue white wing tips and rudder. DB. 601 A/1 engine No.30674 made by Henschel Cassel. No armour plating head shield. In good condition. Camouflage fuselage mottled dark and light green and grey wings standard. However, this report is incorrect in one detail as A.I.1.(k) Report No.419/1940 on the capture of GRABOW confirms: Badge:- Small yellow snake on the fuselage. Incidentally, one marking detail not mentioned in any of the reports but clear from photographs of the airframe taken while on display in Australia is what appears to be the emblem of 1.(J)/LG2 carried on the starboard rear fuselage only. --------------- Regards Michael