Posts posted by HBBates
On 5/13/2023 at 10:44 PM, Rusty Shackleford said:
The posts referring to British-purchased planes seems to be irrelevant to the OP's intentions, if I read right, and you are building one of the AVG Flying Tiger machines. These were absolutely in US spec finishes. Those planes were purchased directly by China. Zinc Chromate likely on all surfaces per your question. BTW, ZC is not a color mixture, but the natural result of its chemical mixture as an etching primer. It was (and is) a primer used on metals that don't take paint well. (Aluminum, stainless steel, brass, etc.)
Not correct ...the AVG aircraft stared from a Britain contract....the one cockpit photo I have is Factory lable as "H-81A2 (China)"....also found on line once a copy a Document signed by Churchill releasing the 100 air frames for China....The Original RAF series numbers for the AVG aircraft is well documented... and just the features of the AVG airframes also are unquie to the RAF contract aircraft vs the US P40 contract ( The camo paint job ...the square back seat... the pitot tube...other various things).... I always recommend the Dupont RAF equivalent colors for the AVG aircraft including the interior.
I will add again that having see and taken samples of a Tomahawk skin recovered from Russia. The underside appears to a match to Dupont chart showing 71-021. And does have a green cast
I know this question comes up all the time about the Dupont colors ...
For me I have personally seen and collected skin samples from Tomahawk's recovered from Russia and they clearly appeared to be in the Dupont RAF equivalent colors including the cockpit...
Hell I was in a Tractor trailer full of recovered Tomahawk parts and I've had the oxidized paint rubbed all over my clothes from the large skin panel.
For me there is no debate that at least for Curtis aircraft and RAF contract
Curtiss painted them in the Dupont RAF equivalent colors
In fact That would be my natural default for any overseas ordered aircraft from a US maker until at least middle of 42
57 minutes ago, sapperastro said:
For the British type fishtail exhaust for an Allison engine
Tomahawks Airircobras and Mustang are close to same
While you can try modifications to the fishtail stacks to the type in the photo the seem unique to the Tomahawks and never see them made in a kit or aftermarket.. I've asked but no one's ever made them
17 hours ago, nicholas mayhew said:
in a way it does because it would seem to tie in with what i am seeing in Ultracast's seat with a Sutton
now i know looking at aftermarket to deduce what the real thing was like is akin to looking at most profiles to determine original camouflage ie extremely flaky!, but what they depict does make sense
do they have it right you think, with the rear straps split, one part going in down the front, and the other going over the back?
pics from ModellingNews
That ultra cast seat is for a Tomahawk not a Kitty hawk ..very diffrent
So for the RAF/AVG Tomahawk (not a US P40) I have one color photo at the Curtiss factory showing the square back seat before install sitting on the wing of a Tomahawk .. and the seat is a mid dark green close to the camo dark green.. yes that seems strange but that what it showed.....in my research on the square backseat the same seat seem was use in other aircraft (Harvard's for one) and ive found photos in war bird forums of the same seat pull for restoration..in that same dark green color...not saying you could not have other colors (natural medal) ... but the dark green seem to be legit
My RAF/AVG Tomahawk cockpit colors choices based on my interpretations of Curtiss factory colors photos is .
Main cockpit Dupont 71-036 "cockpit ligh green"
Seat ..dark green
Headrest black leather (not the brown on the P40)
Other may have other opinions and evidence (evidence is always good)
Im not sure how much this will help but a photo of some skin samples I was able to collect from one of the Tomahawks recover from Russian ...fyi the sky in person did have a green tinted that does not show the the photo
6 hours ago, Angry_GCI said:
Hi, I'm struggling to find References for how the Antenna is anchored to the aircraft as all of the restored aircraft seem to have it removed or replaced with a UHF radio. If anyone can help that'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
While not directly antenna related I did do some details notes about spine detail
On 3/27/2020 at 12:35 PM, Jackson Duvalier said:
I'm planning to build one or two models of the very early production P-40 using the 1/72 Airfix kit. Known modifications will include removal of the outboard wing guns and associated access panels, and the addition of blast tubes for the remaining wing .30 machine guns and the .50 nose guns.
I haven't found any irrefutable reference as to cockpit colour. I suspect that Curtiss may have been using their variant of "Interior Green" by 1940 or '41, but there's also the possibility that they were still finished in aluminium lacquer at that point. The black-and-white photos in the Detail and Scale volume that is my primary reference aren't fully conclusive, though they suggest Curtiss green to this observer. I'll give the available photos another hard look but if anyone has evidence solid or circumstantial on this point I thank them in advance. Any other relevant information would likewise be happily received.
I'll be using the AML P-40-CU sheet for marking the proposed model(s); I used their Pearl Harbor P-40 set on a previous Airfix Hawk and wasn't terribly impressed with their performance. Does anyone have tips for working with AML
If doing a P40cu from a P40B/C the main problem is the rear left glass doed not have the two round opening for gas and oil fill that the P40B/C has.....you can't fill you have to create a new glass piece .. you then have to scribe the new fuel, oil and hydraulic fill doors on the fuselage
Notes the on P36vs P40cu vs P40B/C
If kit makers would just do the rear glass with the frame then the could do glass inserts for the P40cu and P40B/C.. and then have the P40cu fuselage fuel door as a"fill" in if doing a P40B/C.. could get whole other version out of it
On 6/14/2019 at 7:54 AM, matford said:
Looking at what photos I can find (going by serial numbers), Mk.Is appear to have the later larger wing root of the Mk.IIs, not CUs. Is this correct of just my imagination?
Did the Mk.I have a canopy horn alarm? - can't find any photos of the starboard side.
Is there any reliable wing panel drawings?
Anyone know the codes for these II (AC) Squadron Mk.I and Mk.IIBs
The wing root fairing was replaceable so. doesn't necessarily correspond as a given that an early product aircraft would have it entire life
The early product aircraft that may of left the factory with the smaller original root fairing could (and would) have the later larger fairing fitted... The larger fairing was a needed aerodynamic fix
If you at photod of early cu you will see some retrofitted with the larger one than you can see it by the mismatch panels
Dana Bell saw the smaller fairing in photos of the early cu and then did the research to find the documentation. .. If I recall it was a fix for a stall issue
So the serial number is not a predictor of seeing the smaller versus larger fairing...it's the time of the photo.
A few years back I got know one of the major P40 /Tomahawks rebuilder and got to go through his recovered parts pile.(Two cargo containers worth of recovered parts and skins. Photos above are some of the parts that we pulled out into the sunlight so I could photograph)
So I did get to see in person the skins of one of the Tomahawks, recovered from Russia some years back. It was in the Curtiss applied "RAF paint". I also got small samples of the skins in the Dark Earth, Dark Green and, Sky ...
Bottom line.. in person ...to me.. the underside color on a large surface clearly looks like the du pont sky color with the green tinge to it
( That's allowing for the sky color was quite oxidize so much so that it was rubbing off on my jeans and I came home with du pont sky all over my pants...so from first hand knowledge including trying to wash that paint out of my pants ...it not straight gray it does have a green to it
5 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:
I understand rounded seats were used mostly on early Tomahawks I and Mohawks, originally ordered by French. Tomahawks IIa had been equipped with squared seats, as HBBates said. Otherwise, thanks for information about Sutton harnesses subtype, BS_w. Cheers
To my knowledge the early Tomahawks I did not use the roundback seat..its possable but i would have to see a photo
The point of the "square back seat" seem was to be genric seat that would accommodate Brit seatpack parachute and French backpack parachutes..(the flat square seatback fits a backpack parachute better then a round curved seat back..that the point of a flat square seatback...also note that the squareback seat ..seatpan is also unique with and indentation in the bottom and bump out on the left with leather lining to meet British requirements for their seat pack parachutes...)
You see the square back seat used on Tomahawk, Mustang, Buffalo, Harvard and Yale ..its actually a very common seat..they are still around on today on warbirds today (Harvard and Yale trainers, the EAA XP51 Mustang )
Now before the square back seat... on Hawk 75's sold to France you do see the US type round back seats... modify a bit for the French..so I would not be really surprised to see it in early Tomahawks from the French order..but I can not recall seeing one
I've always suspected the square back seat originated with the Anglo-French Purchasing Board Set up in North America in 39 for the British and French to coordinate common buying of war material in north america .. Hence a common aircraft seat that fit both British and French requirements
4 hours ago, BlackAck said:
Okay. I've done a quick interweb search and found that seats with square backs (described as being 'for Export') are non-existent in 1:32. Is it as simple a lopping off the curve on a 'standard' seat?
The Export squareback seat used in the Tomahawk was alse used in the early RAF Mk1 Mustang. ..While not the best, the 1/32 Hobbycraft Mustang has this seat.
7 hours ago, BS_w said:
I found this:
- oil system modified
- cowl flap altered to prevent 100 percent closure
- drain valve installed in lowest part of oil tank sump
- added a 750w immersion heater in oil tank
- all bearing exposed -60°F lubricatd with another grease
- additional heat for carburetor and guns
- oil lines lagged with asbestos tape and cotton tape
- cockpit heating system modified
- added propeller anti icing system
I'll on the subject of the Aleutian P40 I came across a photograph sometime back that showed at least one with a real strange anomaly that have never been able to figure out, which is the circular hatch in the rear right glass ..
13 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:
Thanks Graham, for the excellent reply.
I think I will go with the Sky Type 'S' and black for the the underside, and see if I can find a paint in my stash that matches the Sky Blue for the spinner and the tail band.
Here is a photo of Humbrol paint tins next to Tomahawk skin samples I had
Note the "sky" skin (it was from the stabilizer) that we cut the sample from, when seen in person, did have a slight green tint to the gray ..the photo of the sample did not catch this
These samples came from a Tomahawk recovered in deep in Russian and had be exposed to the weather for many years
33 minutes ago, ReccePhreak said:
Thanks for that, I think I have the seat belts sorted out.
Now I just need verification if the plane I am doing would have had the rounded top seats or the square top seats.
I found a set of Ultracast Curtiss P-40 seats in my stash (48037). They have the round seat top and the Sutton Harness and are said to be for the B-M variants.
I am not sure if they are correct for my Curtiss Tomahawk IIa.
You want the squareback for a Tomahawk H-81
On 10/16/2018 at 3:00 AM, Smithy said:
Must be Tomahawk day today as I see there's another question about RAF Tomahawks just popped up!
I'm gearing up to get started on the Airfix 1/72 Tomahawk IIb whilst I wait for the paint to cure on my Spit IIa but had a small question about the seat which hopefully someone here can help with. I'll be making mine as Duke's one with 112 Sqn and just wanted to know what the colour was for the seat.
Should it be bare metal or painted the same as the interior? I've had a poke around but couldn't find anything definitive.
Color photo of a Tomahawk under construction see the dark green seat on the left wing..the squareback seats in the Tomahawk are the same seats used in export Harvard's and Yales..(also the same seat in early Raf Mustangs and Buffaloes but thoses seem to be silver) .if look over on warbird exchange you can see modern color pictures of these same seats from Harvards and Yales in this same kind of dark green
The squarebackseat seemed to be a generic design for US export aircraft that was developed to fit both British seat pack parachutes and French backpack parachutes systems
note the seat does not match the cockpit color which was a dupont variation of RAF cockpit green ( ive seen recovered Tomahawks cockpit parts so I know what color it was and its not the same as US P40..)
6 hours ago, chuckb1 said:
I will just do it If I have time and enough printing credit with them
I will go down the teaching resources route. We are covering the War in the Far East and the rise of the Japanese Empire post the Boxer uprising for the students war and conflict units. Topical for them at it is 75 years since Pearl Harbour etc.
We start on Assignment 2 in January so will be then
If you can get a scan of that manual that would be outstanding!... thank you
1 hour ago, chuckb1 said:
I am there next month with my Students, I am using their classrooms over about two weeks, however I will get some free time. Time to have a look I think at the service manual
If you can in any way find out about possibility of geting a digital scan copy I've been really grateful and pay you for it.
When I contact them some years back they said they couldn't do that.
Curtiss on the P40 just like North American on the P51 uses different seat makers...
Now the point of the square or flat back seat was to allow for the use of a backpack type or seatpack type parachute vs the roundback seat that was really for seatpack type parachute only
Also note there are different squareback seats used
The squareback seats used in RAF "longnose" Tomahawks and Mustang mk1 are not the same as use in RAF "shortnose" Kittyhawks/P40 and Mustang mkIII/ Merlin P-51
Below are samples of "shortnose" P-40 seats direct from Curtiss maintenance manuals ...
Note the middle P40 squarback seat is near same as wood seat seen in the P51B/C (see Ultracast Mid Production Plywood P-51B/C seat photo and P51B seat photo at bottom)
Many of these seats were made (or designed and farmed out for production during the war) by American Seating.. a company still around http://www.americanseating.com/
"Shortnose" P40/Kittyhawk seats
Wel im looking at doing a US P40cu,with original tail wheel doors , a B with doors removed and a C with extended doors
then an RAF Tomahawk I and RAF Tomahawk II, and 2 AVG Tomahawk.. early and the later when absorbed into the USAF.with the dark neutral Grey belly repaint and of course a couple different Russia Tomahawks
Then do some P 36, hawk 75 conversion R1830 and R 1820....and the fixed gear China demonstrated
Are any of the UK members anywhere near the Imperial War Museum... they do have in the collection an original Curtiss H81a2 Tomahawk service manual ..its quite detailed with photos and blueprint drawings...I only have a scan of a few pages.. that gunsight sightline drawing is one
A.V.G. Flying Tigers P-40B interior colours
in Aircraft WWII
Posted · Edited by HBBates
For what it's worth this is a photo I took of a "squareback" (export) seats, top mounting bracket, from an H81A2 Tomahawk recovered from Russia.. So you can see the orginal cockpit color of and export RAF H81 Tomahawk vs the US P40 or the later H87/P40