Brian J

I posed my first question on ARC last week but failed to get any informative responses so I thought I'd try here. 1. After looking over numerous photos of AVG P-40Bs I am unable to see if the antenna wires were the same for all aircraft. I know that radio communication was a problem in the early years of the war for most countries and the problem was not solved for several years. In the artwork produced by Thomas A. Tullis in EagleFiles #4 Tigers Over China: The Aircraft of the A.V.G. all of the drawings/artwork indicate that antenna wires ran from the tail to both wing tips as well as to the upper fuselage midway between the cockpit and the tail. While it is often difficult to tell from b&w photos, it appears that this arrangement was not found on all (if any) AVG P-40s. Did the antenna wire arrangement vary from aircraft to aircraft as well as the time period the aircraft were in operation? 2. What would be the appropriate colour for cockpit interiors for these aircraft? Airfix kit instructions indicate 'Interior Green' but my research indicates that 'Interior Green' was not standardized until later in 1943. Has there ever been a definitive conclusion as to what shade of green was used by Curtiss before American entry into the war or before 1943? I welcome any comments or insight on the above questions.

That second colour photo that Dana included is sure interesting. I take it that Dana is suggesting that the colour shown there is an accurate possibility of how the aircraft would have looked? It's just that I've never seen anything like it in any artwork (the two shades of blue) and it looks strange to my eye. Anybody else have a take on it?

Many thanks, Dana, for taking the time to help explain what was going on so long ago. I was hoping you might read this thread and jump in. I'm afraid I'm going to have to read your post a couple of more times to comprehend what you explained. The main thing is you confirmed that if I'm going to use the Yellow-Wings decal sheet (48-072) to build-up P-26 #64 I'll have to do it with a Light Blue 23 fuselage. Am I to conclude that the other two squadrons, the 34th and 73rd could be painted with an OD fuselage or should all three squadrons have a blue fuselage? Are you aware of any photos being available that show the size and font of the white numbers on the underside of 17th PG P-26's? As I indicated earlier, none of the P-26 decal sheets I have have the correct colour for those numbers. Do you know if all three squadrons had those white belly numbers? It's hard to tell from photos. One more comment. Gee, I wish I lived in your neighborhood. I'd be visiting you every day!

Something just dawned on me (that's pretty unusual) and I thought I'd add this observation. In the second photo 'Vonbraun' posted of #64, according to specs, if the fuselage scallops were yellow/blue/yellow, the fuselage should have been Light Blue 23. But in the photo the darker colour in the scallops is lighter then the colour of the fuselage. Does that mean the fuselage was not the same colour as the interior of the interior scallop i.e. the fuselage was not Light Blue 23? Is it possible that the fuselage was OD but with the yellow/blue/yellow scallops? In other words the Yellow-Wings decal instructions are correct except for the circle of the unit emblem, which should be yellow and not blue.

I found the last sentence in the above posting very interesting in that, again, I hope to do build-ups in each squadron of the 17th PG. I had hoped to do all three of them in OD but the two 1/48 decal sheets I have means that the model representing the 95th will have to be done in Light Blue 23. That sentence also moved me to pull out my copy of the Aero Series No. 22 and re-read the section on 'Markings and Color Schemes.' More questions were raised when I compared the artwork on the bottom of page 20, which represents P-26 #72 of the 95 PS. A b&w photo of this aircraft can be seen at the bottom of the next page. From what was suggested in other references, if the fuselage was OD the fuselage scalloping should be blue/yellow/blue (as seen in the two photos on page 23), with the unit insignia in a Light Blue 23 circle. The photo at the bottom of page 21 has the fuselage scallops reversed with the unit insignia on a lighter coloured circle (yellow?). Yet the artwork of this aircraft shows the unit badge on a Light Blue 23 circle. Also, the number '72' on the vertical tail appears to be lighter then the black numbers shown in the artwork. Of interest is the comment on page 23, which states, "Each squadron in the 17th Pursuit Group had a run of numbers painted on either side of the vertical fin on top of the rear fuselage turtledeck. The squadron number was painted in white, under the belly of the fuselage." Would those white numbers be found on all three squadrons? The two 1/48 sheets I keep referring to show these underside numbers in the colour of the squadron, not white. Any comments? Another point of interest is in comparing the two tail colours on the P-26's found on page 23. in the middle photo of #62 the vertical tail is much darker then the blue of the fuselage scallops, while the tail markings of #65 in the lower photo is much lighter, the same shade as the fuselage scalloping. Ideally, I'd love to do the colour scheme for the 95th PS as is shown on page 20 but I don't know how accurate that would be. I'm having a hard time letting this go! Spent some more time looking at photos and comparing them to those decal sheets. I noticed that on the second photo #64 the flight leader stripes on the wing are noticeable as being lighter then the yellow wing and with no dark/black edging (at least to my eye). The Yellow-Wings sheet shows this stripe as yellow edged in black, and they only provide one stripe! I would think that stripe would be in blue as yellow on yellow with no edging wouldn't make sense. In an earlier posting 'flypaper' says that the stripes for the 34th PS were black with white edging. The Yellow-Wings sheet represent these stripes as white with black edging. Inaccurate decals have always been one of my modeling pet peeves and these decals are verifying that opinion!

Again, thanks for the input. That second photo of P-26 #64 is one of the ones I was talking about. Yours is larger and more clear. I have another photo taken from a very old modeling magazine, a panoramic view taken from an elevated position showing 18 P-26's, mostly from the 95th PS. #64 can be seen in the front row with no gun sight or antenna in front of the windscreen or the tail. In fact none of the aircraft have these antennas or gun sights. I believe these are the markings for the Yellow Wings 1/48 sheet. This is the photo found on the bottom of page 19 of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors. For those who don't have a copy of this book, there are two other photos above it, one for each of the other two squadrons in the 17th PG. The caption reads, "95th PS colors were blue and yellow (reversed for contrast when blue fuselages were introduced). All of these "Peashooters" had OD fuselages with yellow wings. Note that the 95th PS did not repeat the aircraft number on the fuselage spine." Would members following these postings conclude that the subject in the above photo have a blue or OD fuselage? Am I reading the caption wrong or is it suggesting that #64 had a OD fuselage?

Many thanks for your response. An observation and question. All of my references indicate that the 95th PS (blue and yellow squadron colours) in question had the 'kicking mule' unit insignia. The 73rd PS (red and yellow squadron colours) had the brown bear unit insignia. According to the AAHS article/art work did the art work for the 95th PS (blue and yellow) with a OD fuselage show those markings in yellow/blue/yellow on the fuselage or were they blue/yellow/blue? The more I look over b&w photos the more I believe that a definitive study could/should be done on the study of P-26 markings. So much confusion. I have two photos of P-26 #64 in which one shows the aircraft with an antenna and gun sight and another that shows it without. This holds true for other aircraft in the 17th PG.

O-o-o-kay, I'm going to try this again and see if I can get some answers. First off I'm going to list my references hoping that other members have access to the photos/drawing I'm referring to. 1. Air Force Colors, Vol. 1 1926-1942 by Dana Bell; Squadron Signal Publications. 2. The Official Monogram US Army air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Color Guide, Vol. 1, 1908-1941 by Robert D. Archer; Monogram Aviation Publications. 3. P-26 Mini in Action by Larry Davis; Squadron Signal Publications. 4. On Target Special No. 6 Wings of Stars: US Arm Air Corps 1919-1941 by Peter Freeman; The Aviation Workshop Publications Ltd. 5. Yellow Wings Decals, 48-072 P-26A 17th Pursuit Group (1934/35) 6. Starfighter Decals, 4802 P-26 Peashooters I have other references as well, but the above will do. My questions have to do with the interpretation of the markings of the 95th PS 'Kicking Mules' of the 17th PG. On page 186 of reference 2 there are two photos of P-26's from the 95 PS. The top photo of #62 shows the tail and head rest scallops in yellow on a darker background (Light Blue 23 ?). The fuselage scalloping shows dark/light/dark colours (Light Blue/Yellow/Light Blue). The unit insignia appears to be a mule on a Light Blue 23 circle/background. At the bottom of the page is a photo of P-26 #73. The same markings but the colours are reversed i.e. Light Blue 23 scalloping on tail and head rest on a yellow tail. Same goes for the fuselage scalloping. On page 48 of reference 1 are two artwork images. The top one is of the above mentioned #62 showing the yellow scalloping, etc. These markings apparently were appropriate for an OD fuselage. The second image is of #74 with the two colours reversed. This reversal of colours was apparently used when the fuselage colour was changed to blue. The bottom photo on page 186 of reference 2 seems to verify this reversal in unit colours i.e. Light Blue scalloping on a yellow background. The unit insignia now has a mule ( colour of which I am uncertain) on a yellow (?) circle, just like on the art work on page 48 of reference 1. These interpretation of colour markings appear to be verified on page 39 of reference 4. My problem arises when I compare the two above mentioned decal sheets, references 5 and 6. The Starfighter sheet has markings for P-26 #90, the tail numbers small and in black when they should be larger and in Light Blue 23, with blue scalloping and yellow/blue/yellow fuselage scalloping (the blue is close to True Blue, which I believe is incorrect). The sheet instructions show this to be applied to a Light Blue 23 fuselage. The Yellow Wings decal sheet shows the same colour interpretation as the Starfighter sheet but on a OD fuselage. According to the photos in reference 2 and the artwork in reference 1 the tail colours are wrong on this sheet as is the yellow/blue/yellow fuselage scallops. This sheet has the unit insignia smaller then the Starfighter sheet with a brown mule on a yellow circle with blue edging (the opposite of the Starfighter sheet). I am interested in doing a build up of three P-26's in the markings of the three units of the 17th PG. I had hoped to do them all with the OD fuselage. From what I can gather I can't use the fuselage scallops from either of the two mentioned decal sheets as they would be for the Light Blue 23 fuselage markings. Does anyone know if all three squadrons flew with the Light Blue fuselage scheme? Black and white photos make it difficult to judge if they did. I apologize for my long winded, rambling introduction but after looking at photos until I'm blue in the face (Light Blue 23 by the way) I am at a loss as to how to proceed. Any advice and comments would be appreciated...please, no eye rolling and head shaking.

From all the photos I've seen I conclude that the finish was gloss. Years ago I purchased several tins of Xtracolor Olive Drab WWII (X112 ANA613). I don't know off hand if that was the same as pre-war OD. I posted several vague questions about P-26's as well a while back and failed to get many responses. May try to clarify my problems in a couple of days. Good luck. What unit are you considering for your build-up?

I have three 1/48 decal sheets for markings of the well known P-26's of the 17th PG. An issue arises when trying to compare black and white photos of the unit markings of the 95th PS (kicking mules) and the 73rd PS (bears head) with the decal sheets from AeroMaster (48-063), Yellow Wings (48-072) and Starfighter Decals (4802). 1. 73rd PS -the AeroMaster sheet has the unit markings with a brown surround, the same colour as the bear. -the Yellow Wings sheet has a larger badge with a black surround and a different amount of black shading. Both of the above markings are for a/c number 37. -the Starfighter sheet has a smaller badge with a yellow surround and bear head with a dark blue backing. The Yellow Wings sheet and the Starfighter sheets show different colours for the 95th PS unit badge. I realize that these colours might differ when the 17th changed from O.D. to blue, but photos seem to contradict the colours of the scallops as well. I'd enjoying hearing from others who may have access to photos (I have at least five or six references on the subject) to help clarify the issue as I have three Academy P-26's that I'd love to tackle.

Well, I think that last photo posted by Troy showing the subject aircraft in aluminum finish with dark main gear door interiors kind of answers my question. Thanks to all for helping out.

Of all the responses to my original question the one that has the most merit in MY opinion are the two quotes that Troy included on Saturday in which Jerry Crandall gives his slant on things. Forget everything else and just re-read them. For ME, if Jerry don't know nobody knows! I'm waiting for the torch carrying mob carrying pitchforks to come looking for me...gotta find a place to hide!

Thanks to all for taking the time to respond. The cockpit colour is understandable relative to WWII Tempest/Typhoon colours, I guess it was the gear wells and doors that got me to thinking. When these aircraft were repainted in an aluminium finish, were those areas in question repainted as well? All of the colour images that were included in the above postings show camouflaged airframes.

Many thanks to the gentlemen who took the time to respond. I think serious consideration has to be given to the preceding observation about painting in spite of the regulations, not in accordance to them.. In a posting by Jerry Crandell on Hyperscale dated May 4, 2007 under the heading 'Some additional thoughts on late war Luftwaffe colors' he observed, "An interesting side note relating to RLM documents, one outspoken unit commander told us 'there is no way we could keep up with the constant directives and changes those bureaucrats at the RLM came up with!'" In this same post Mr. Crandell indicates that critics of some of the colours, especially a "Light Green" may be in error as he had samples of Dora 9 parts that were painted with colours that were not official (my words). Concerning Ta 152s, there were few of them built, with parts from various factories and often in service for a very short period of time. After so many opinions have been offered over the decades, I feel like one of those four blind men asked to describe an elephant after each took turns feeling various parts e.g. the tail, the leg, the trunk, the tusk, etc. What the h... are we looking at?

S-o-o, Graham what colours would you suggest? When referring to Jerry Crandell's opinion on the subject I was considering, among others, the following sources: 1. EagleCals Decal sheet EC#133, copyright 2011, in which the four subject aircraft, Green 6, White 7 and Yellow 1 and 2 have the same camouflage colours of 76 Light Blue, 82 Bright Green and 83 Dark Green. 2. The Focke-Wulf Ta 152 by Thomas H. Hitchcock, Monogram Monarch Series Number Three, copyright 2010. On page 181 we find the following, "When the first Ta 152 H-0 appeared in November 1944, it was camouflaged in accord with Air Ministry instructions governing single-seat high altitude fighters. The illustration (p 160-161), of Ta 152 H-1, W. Nr. 150168, "Green 9", is instructive and representative of the so-called late war defensive camouflage colors. Based on an eye-witness description published in the 29 November 1945, issue of the British bi-weekly, The Aeroplane Spotter, the reporter stated this aircraft "...is camouflaged on the upper surfaces of the wings, fuselage and tailplane and the fuselage sides in various shades of Green..." Undoubtedly, this reporter's mention of "various shades" of Green implied the two new upper surface camouflage colors RLM 82 Bright Green and RLM 83 Dark Green. The other new late-war upper surface camouflage color, RLM 81 Brown-Violet, could have been paired with either 82 or 83, but in the case of W. Nr. 150168, The Aeroplane Spotter's reporter made no mention of a "Brown." Three colour profiles in the above book of Ta 152H-0s located at Alteno Airfield show a colour scheme of 76/82/83. A 3-view colour drawing of Ta 152H-1/R 11 "Green 9" have the same colour scheme. 3. JAGDWAFFE: Luftwaffe Colours , Volume Five Section 3 by Robert Forsyth, published in 2005.. On page 264 the colour profile caption reads, "The camouflage finish on Ta 152s was virtually identical to that applied to the later Fw 190 D-9s and consisted of 82 and 83 on the uppersurfaces with 76 below." I conclude that 76/82/83 is the way to go, but where was "Malcolm" coming from?

Thanks for the heads-up, John. Looks like I'm in for more work then I anticipated. The last post from your link (Upnorth) included some sound advice i.e. using parts from the old Heller Tempest. I have an Academy kit as well, and may include that in working something out.

Without listing all of my references I have encountered a difference of opinion on the upper surface colours of late war Ta 152Hs. Jerry Crandell is of the opinion that these colours should be RLM 82 Bright Green and RLM 83 Dark Green. I have the highest regard for Mr. Crandell's opinions, but what to make of the following? A gentleman named 'Malcolm' made a comment on Britmodeller on Dec 22, 2010 which included this observation. "All the evidence that I have after years of research with my German historian colleagues points to 76/81/82, there is no evidence that I have ever come across that they were painted in any other way (and that includes interviews with Focke-Wulf Cottbus factory employees). Has this issue ever been settled? I would enjoy seeing/hearing opinions on this subject.

I'd like to finally get around to work on the Special Hobby 1/72 Hawker Tempest Mk.II in the silver markings of W/C Frank Carey of 135 Wing. A b/w photo can be found at the bottom of page 141 of The Typhoon & Tempest Story by C. Thomas and C. Shores. What would be the colour of the interior of the gear doors and wheel wells? Also, would the cockpit be black? Are there any shortcomings of this kit that need correction?

My apologies for taking so long to respond to the above comments. I had to find out how to post again as the 'system' appears to have changed since I last posted several months ago and I couldn't locate my eight year old neighbour to help me out! Contrary to 'Pauls9cb's' comment, I have not finished my build-up of 'White 4'. Alas, as with over twenty or more kits I have started, it remains on a back burner waiting for the stars to line up or me being confident enough that I finally have found THE definitive colour scheme for that subject. Hopefully, with Dave Wadman's permission, I will share some of the observations he sent me by e-mail back in January, 2010. His comments are in italics. "2) Are you satisfied with the artists profile on page 280 of Jagdwaffe, Volume Two Section 31? More or less, yes...Aside from published and unpublished photos, intelligence reports and the like we even had access to strips of paint taken as souvenirs (along with a couple of other bits) from the aircraft by one of the Canadian soldiers mounting guard on it in the field along with some fragmentary paint samples from the airframe provided to us by the late Mike Payne. Thus in all, there were quite a few of these strips of paint from both upper and lower surfaces as well as from one of the fuselage crosses and tiger head emblem. Also, while on one of my yearly trips home to the UK I was able to have a close look at the airframe immediately prior to and during its 'renovation' at Duxford where I was allowed to 'borrow' some of the remaining original paint fragments still attached to the airframe. Subsequent examination of all 'strips' made available to us after various forms of rubbing and polishing to remove dirt, oxidization etc clearly showed that the upper surfaces were finished in two separate shades of grey far removed from 74 and 75. Similarly, the same treatment given to the lower surface blue 65 strips clearly showed several different shades of blue! I was also given some of the original aluminium skin from one of the wings during a visit to Duxford (it had been intended to reskin both wings but I understand that due to the costs involved, only one, the one in worst condition, was re-skinned). Three of these pieces of upper surface skin retained a substantial amount of paint which allowed us to continually but gradually 'cut back' the paint in some areas which showed that the greys had been lightly applied over the original 70/71 colours. 3) As I indicated on my Britmodeller post, what concerns me the most about all of these 109's is the colour and the camouflage pattern on the upper wing and tail surfaces. I read the September 2004 issue of Model Aircraft Monthly with keen interest and using that as a reference...what are your impressions of the four view drawings on page 52? They suggest RLM 66 Schwarzguau and RLM 61 Dunkelbrun. What about the camouflage pattern? Was the same pattern used when an aircraft was repainted and what colours would replace what colours? As far as upper camo patterns on 109Es go, yes, there were set standard patterns as outlined by my good friend Ken Merrick in his recent camo books but these were subject to some interpretation as clearly evidenced by period photos of the aircraft of the various Staffeln. I presented a summation of these in section 1 of my four part B of B series in the classic Colours series. I too read that article and have had access in the past to the pieces mentioned but what the author failed to make clear was that the few distinct brown shades mentioned were under the extant colours which, as the aircraft they were from had been in service for some time prior to being brought down and strongly suggests that the brown had been applied to the airframe, during the known pre-B of B trials to find optional camo schemes. The other browns mentioned are nothing more than badly oxidized 02 Green-Grey. Given the variety of grey shades used to adapt the upper camo on 109s during the later stages of the B of B, I have no doubt that applications of 'straight' 66 may also have been used on some airframes. What must be remembered is that these various grey and grey/green schemes were adaptions of the basic camo pattern insofar that they were only lightly applied over the existing 70/71 or 02/71 finishes and were generally applied to follow the existing pattern lines." From the above comments you can see why I lack confidence in finishing my 109E! I don't know if Dave still tunes into this site but maybe he can add to his above observations. For that matter I would enjoy hearing from anyone else who can add to the conversation. P.S. It was nice to hear from Jim Maas. He was kind enough to help me out on the colours of a 1/48 Grumman F2F-1 I started several months ago. It is one of the kits on the back burner. I swear Jim, I'm gonna get back to it in a couple of weeks. So many kits, so little time!

Like many others, I have long had an interest in the career of Don Gentile. He signed up for the RAF in August of 1941 in my hometown of Windsor, Ontario, across the river from Detroit, Michigan. A detailed account from his 1944 logbook can be found at wademeyersart.tripod.com and is a very detailed, interesting read. Several dates and events taken from this website may shed light on the above topic. Gentile's first flight in P-51, VF-T was March 2nd. April 13th was his last mission in VP-T. It appears he flew this aircraft for a little over a month. His wingman, John Godfrey flew 'Shangri-La' on April 9th. Squadron history shows Gentile sat out the 3 missions from the 9th to the 11th. I could be mistaken, but it appears Gentile flew no more than 12 or 13 missions in this famous aircraft. During the first few months of operation P-51B's experienced numerous maintenance issues (spark plugs, oil leaks, guns jamming, etc.) and pilots often flew different aircraft. According to Wade Meyers web site the 4th FG had their white ETO recognition noses painted over in red on March 15th. "The very first batch of red paint was purchased from local civilian stores and was a lacquer type with a relatively low pigment content, rather than an enamel; that is, it had a nail polish transparent quality and took 3 or 4 coats to cover well. Very thin and watery as one hangar technician stated. Shortly thereafter, on one of the first flights (March 17?) with the new red noses, some of the Mustangs flew through "rough weather". A sleet storm was encountered by some of the P-51s, and the ice just peeled that cheap red paint right off their spinners. That was why Shangri-La's spinner sported that very ragged edge to the spinners red/white demarcation line...within a few days Don had the white forward half of the spinner touched up... the red/white cowl checkerboard and the red wheels would have been painted on at this time." "Mar 16-18.....VF-T flown with red, then red/wht nose, and 13 crosses on the scroll." Well, you get the idea. Several changes in a short time period. Again, check the above web site if interested. As to the colour of the Olive Drab colour, I agree with Gingerbob that the aircraft was waxed near the end and appears darker then in some earlier photos. The whole story of the famous 'Shangri-La' was no more than six weeks!

The Hyperscale post I was referring to was about the 1/48 kit. Several images were included along with comments by David Harvey, the editor of Aussie Modeller International. It sure sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

While checking out Hyperscale to-day I noticed some comments on correcting errors on the Airfix Meteor. I have not read anything about these errors/corrections on this site and would enjoy hearing comments on these observations and any other minor errors that have come to light as more modelers begin working on this fine kit. The initial post was made on July 20th, under the topic heading "Building thoughts on the new Airfix Meteor" started by Wayne.

These authors have all been mentioned but I feel obliged to add my two cents. As a modeler and aviation enthusiast I will purchase or certainly refer to any book or correspondence with their name included. Nick Millman: Besides his books and informative blog site he has taken the time to return e-mail questions. He has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know on Japanese markings. I hold his opinions in high regard. Chris Thomas: Mr. Hawker Typhoon and Tempest. I have most of his books and magazine articles in my reference library. He has also been very generous with his time in answering my endless questions on this modeling site. Roger Freeman: One of, if not the authority on Eighth Air Force history. Dana Bell: His name attached to any aviation correspondence is worth a look. To my knowledge, I have all of his published work. I had the pleasure of attending one of his IPMS presentations years ago. Modest, with a sense of humour and very authoritative. Jerry Crandall: Again, I have purchased most of his books. He sure knows his Fw 190 material! I met him at an IPMS Nationals years ago and never forgot one of his observations that one should be very skeptical of anyone who claimed to have definitive answers to Luftwaffe markings. Larry Milberry: Started his own publishing company (he observed it was no way to get rich) and produced Canadian aviation literature to the highest standard. I have met him on several occasions and hold him and his opinions in high regard. Jim Maas: As others have suggested, Mr. Brewster Buffalo. He has been very helpful answering my questions on other modeling sites. Rodger Lindsay: Cold War Shield series. Say no more! Alfred Price: British aviation authority. Authoritative and balanced opinions. I'm sure I've missed many others, but the above come to mind. I feel obliged to say that the above list of authors (and others) are owed a debt of gratitude by students of aviation history like me for the years of time and effort (no doubt a labour of love) they have spent in making our hobby and interests so enjoyable. I find the above authors I have met to be modest and open minded, always open to new ideas and information. Thank you, gentlemen!

Thanks again, John, your opinions are valued. They may also save me some money!

Many thanks for taking the time to post those photos. May I ask, John, if you have a final opinion on the comparison between the kit and resin options? I conclude the resin large bore intakes are not as accurate as the kit version while the small bore resin ones are a viable option.