ColFord

Tim, Depends on which mark of RAF Mustang you are wishing to model, as there were differences in the interior colour arrangements in the cockpit area and within the main airframe areas between the earliest Allison engined RAF Mustangs and the later Merlin engined P-51 marks. The colour loosely called 'interior green' evolved during that time, starting as a much lighter and yellow tinged green and progressed through for the Merlin engined marks to the later colour. There was also variation in the colours used for the instrument shroud, seat, and other cockpit items from the earliest to the latest. Other things to consider too are that RAF Mustangs in the ETO were modified before being accepted for operational service or in service with a range of modifications to suit them for RAF service. So things like seat harness, gun sights and radios, some ancillary cockpit equipment (such as fitting a RAF P-8 compass), was different to the USAAF items seen in most kits. It all comes down to which RAF Mustang mark, where and when. Regards,

I'll make the point regarding a very limited number of early N.A. Mustang Mk.I aircraft that had the US factory supplied 'pistol' grip top replaced by the circular 'spade' grip top from what I was informed by those there at the time an RAF Harvard Mk.I. Was apparently a fairly simple swap over job as the electrical wiring in the control column and grip top was the same, the mounting was the same - both for NAA products. The modification was made as a personal modification for a couple of senior officers who were in command of ACC Mustang Squadrons, and was based on their personal preference for that type of grip based on their flying career with the RAF up until then. So put onto the CO's 'personal' aircraft. Not a widespread thing and something that dropped out of favour as the US style grip became more prevalent and turnover of aircraft increased. Now given these same Squadrons were also operating the Tomahawk, with the same CO's, it has made me wonder if they might have tried something similar with the Tomahawk. Something I never thought to ask them when I was making my inquiries and unfortunately the last of those who had flown a Mustang Mk.I with a spade grip when he had flown the CO's personal Mustang and had flown Tomahawks before that passed away last year. The couple of surviving pilot's I am in contact with who flew Tomahawks, only flew them for a number of hours at 41OTU as a stepping stone between the Harvard and the Mustang, or later on the Squadron as a 'hack' and only recall the US style grip. ADDED EXTRA INFO - The important thing to remember is, very limited number of Mustangs had the control column modification, it utilised a component already available through the RAF stores system, it was a component already manufactured by NAA for the RAF Harvard Mk.I, so it was a simple modification. It was not taking a control column top section that was from a different manufacturers aircraft or with different controls fitted, and making modifications to make it work. It was a solution already developed by NAA for the Harvard Mk.1, which from what I was told was about a ten minute job to swap over. Regards,

Thread here that launches into the world of the Typhoon PR.1b and FR.1b. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...&hl=Typhoon

Enzo, RAF Mustangs were fitted with RAF pattern Sutton harnesses - all marks from Mk.I to Mk.IVa. Looking through 'Southern Cross Mustangs" by David Muir, Published by Red Roo in Australia, which is 'the bible' for RAAF and RNZAF Mustangs, indicates the Mustangs delivered direct to the RAAF and RNZAF had the US type seat harnesses and CAC built ones followed that pattern. Regards,

Sir I Humbly apologise and stand corrected. BS. 3039 Chocolate it is!! Now back to working on my Airfix Spitfire XII. Airbrush primed and ready to spray Sky band and spinner.

Terry, It's the pint mug with the Airfix Spitfire XII artwork on it that I put the Spitfire Ale in to!! Bruce, a digestive is a very English sort of biscuit, that even us "colonials" like. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_biscuit I personally like the dark chocolate ones. Can anyone give me the RLM equivalent for that?? Regards,

I wonder if they could do a similar beer mug so I could refuel it with one of these......... And I'd really like one that accompanies an Airfix 1/48th Spitfire FR.XIVE or 1/48th Spitfire PR.XIX new release kit. I can hope can't I? I'm currently building my Airfix Spitfire XII kit and finding it a real delight to build. Just at the point all masked up ready to paint on the Sky fuselage band, yellow wing leading edge strips and prop tips, then onto the decalling. Bucking the trend doing it as EB-H. Regards,

May I commend as a reference source if you are wishing to model a Spitfire PR.XI: http://www.venturapublications.com/store/i...products_id=296 A good and focussed book on just Merlin engined PR Spitfires. Lots of handy stuff for a modeller. Regards,

Edgar, Agree "Mixed Grey" was not an official term used, however when other than the out of the can stock paint that was officially produced as "Ocean Grey" was used and I want to indicate that the "colour, obtained by mixing seven parts of SEA GREY MEDIUM reference 33B/157 and one part of NIGHT reference 33B/205." was applied because they could not get stocks of "Ocean Grey" paint what do I use? I have two words that are now generally known to be a term adopted post-War to describe the use of the substitute or alternate for the properly formulated and correctly tinted paint, that depending on how it was mixed and applied could range from a shade not much darker than MSG to a very dark grey much darker than Ocean Grey. I can use 2 words or 20 to state the same thing. Interested in what might be an acceptable term.

Howard, If you have picked your subject aircraft, or at least the subject aircraft's timeframe, would you care to share as I may be able to point you towards other information or send some more information your way directly. Regards,

The original NA Mustang Mk.Is (no equivalent US designation, pre-dates the P-51) were originally painted at the NAA factory in US manufactured paint equivalents to the RAF temperate scheme - dark green, dark earth, over sky, with early pattern national markings. They were delivered in that scheme to the UK and early batches were operated in that scheme. They were repainted by July-August 1942 in the UK into the newer Day Fighter Scheme using Dark Green, Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, revised national markings with reduced yellow and white segments. In some cases because of a shortage of Ocean Grey, they were repainted using what was known as 'mixed grey' which comprised a mix of Medium Sea Grey and Night/Black. Depending on the percentages used, how thinned, how applied, this could come out markedly lighter or darker than the targeted Ocean Grey shade. All the repainting in the UK was with RAF stock paints. The NA Mustang Mk.IAs (straight P-51 equivalent) armed with the 4 x 20mm cannon, were also painted and delivered in the older RAF temperate scheme and early style national markings. On arrival and reassembly in the UK, they were stripped and repainted into a standardised RAF Day Fighter Scheme camouflage and later national markings before entering service. US manufactured painted at the factory, RAF stock paints in the UK. The NA Mustang Mk.IIs (P-51A equivalent) were also delivered to the UK in the older RAF temperate scheme, but with later style markings. Again on arrival in the UK they were stripped and repainted into a standardised RAF Day Fighter Scheme camouflage and later national markings before entering service. As for the Mk.IA. See here for more useful information on RAF Allison Mustangs in an earlier thread on Britmodeller: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...&hl=mustang We also had a couple of very long threads over at the P51SIG in the modelling section on early RAF Mustang C&M and the colours used and some of the subtleties of the way it developed over the life of the aircraft. How soon before repainting varied greatly for the Mk.Is, but by late 1942 they were all basically repainted in the DFS. The Mk.IAs, after reassembly, modifications, they were repainted before entering Squadron service, so somewhere in the months between arrival and issue to the operational Squadron. The Mk.IIs, after reassembly, modifications, then repainted. Note: given by the time the P-51/Mustang Mk.IA and P-51A/Mustang Mk.II aircraft were delivered to the UK, the RAF had adopted the Day Fighter Scheme, all these aircraft were stripped and repainted after reassembly in the UK and repainted into a standardised RAF DFS scheme using standard RAF paints before entering RAF service. In the case of the Mk.IAs, some of these aircraft were held for up to 6 months before finally being released for service with the RAF after arrival in the UK. The Mk.IAs arrived in the UK over the period November 1942 to late January 1943, but the first of them did not enter RAF operational service until June 1943. Similarly for the MK.IIs, they arrived in the UK over the period June-July 1943, but were not first issued for operational service until May 1944 having spent considerable time in Maintenance Units, Group Support Units and contractors being brought up to specification. In some instances part of this delay was for fitting of the Malcolm Hood to the aircraft. Regards,

The A-36 at the USAF Museum at Dayton had a hard life before it was restored and made it into the museum collection. At the point where it was obtained it was in a run down condition and in need of some TLC. Amongst the items missing was the underslung radiator assembly where the belly mounted formation lights are mounted, as well as a range of other components large and small. It was restored in an enthusiastic way by a USAF Reserve unit, using what Mustang bits they could get from various sources, so there are a few P-51A bits on it. The more recent restorations and airworthy examples are more accurate in detail, fortunately starting from more complete airframes. Thus they have the original formation lights fitted where the factory put them. Regards,

Hi Juanita, The A-36 certainly did have its trio of identification lights located in the belly rather than the wingtip as on the later P-51s. Below is from the A-36 E&M Manual. Regards,

Howard, Unfortunately if you are looking at a Malcolm Hood on a RAF Allison Mustang then you really need to consider a Mustang Mk.II as the subject (P-51A). Very few of the Mk.IAs had Malcolm Hoods. A mere handful. Most retained the 'coupe top' as the pilot's referred to it. There is another thread here on BritModeller where someone asked a question about FD535 'X' and I provided a reply with some detail. The photos and profile Chris did in 2TAF is pretty accurate for the scheme on that aircraft in early 1945. Of the two marking options in the Am boxing, FD472 'M' is real, and FD465 'N' is best we can determine from research is spurious - possibly taken from a part code or actually a Mk.II with the Malcolm Hood. FD465 from memory never saw operational service. Jonathan, unfortunately that old Ducimus Mustang C&M book is 'riddled' with errors. The authors at the time worked off the best information they had available, but a lot of the Air Ministry files with the information they needed were closed then. Those files are open now and a lot more photos and material has come forward, so more recent focussed research is producing more accurate information on RAF Mustang C&M. Regards,

Hi PropDuster, Thanks for the “heads up” on the broken Britmodeller link. Works okay over on the P51SIG!! I've corrected the link in the post above and it should now work. Going back over the search results, searching purely in the WW2 forum, using 'Mustang' as the search parameter will also turn up a couple of other posts about RAF Allison Mustangs. As an aside, if modelling a RAF Mustang Mk.IA to be shown ‘in service’ after April-May 1944, then it will need to have the circular external rear vision mirror added above the front canopy bow – top dead centre. Before then they only had the internal rear vision mirror fitted. The internal rear vision mirror was retained, but it was supplemented by the external rear vision mirror. The AM depiction of the circular external rear vision mirror is pretty basic. I have utilised a spare rear vision mirror off the Tamiya P-51B/Mustang Mk.III kits, or a spare circular rear vision mirror off a Spitfire kit for the post-April-May 1944 Mustang Mk.IAs I have built. It also looks as if the remaining RAF Mustang Mk.Is in service around that same time also had the circular external rear vision mirror fitted around the same time. These might help: Regards,

Hi Howard, Some links that might help you: http://www.cybermodeler.com/special/mustang.shtml http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...&hl=Mustang And for a concise history of No.268 Squadron http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn266-270.htm (but word of warning here, the links to the aircraft profiles on this site takes you to profiles that are less than accurate.) As a starting point for some reasonably accurate colour profiles for c&m on RAF Allison engined Mustangs see the October 2008 Edition No.39 of Model Aircraft International. Otherwise some photos and profiles of No.268 Squadron Mustang Mk.IAs in the four volume set of 2TAF by Shores & Thomas. Have you picked a subject aircraft, or is it the box offered FD-472 'M'? Note the AM offered camouflage scheme drawing included with the AM kit is not particularly accurate. In the Britmodeller link above I included a copy of my camo diagram based on multiple photos of the actual aircraft. Regards,

Photos posted on Terry's behalf Regards.

Jerry, It would be the No.26 Squadron Springbok head squadron badge in the centre of the fin flash. It was put onto some of their Tomahawks, I believe on some aircraft prepared for an inspection by a very senior personage, cleaned, polished, preened and with the Squadron badge in the fin flash. Hence why there were photos taken which survived to be used by model makers and others. The temporary exercise markings of one wing in 'Night distemper' were used on quite a few Army Co-operation Command Tomahawks in 1941 and early 1942 for various major Army exercises. Those with the distemper wing were either friendly or hostile depending on which side of the exercise you were on. HTH.

Back to the No.225 Squadron P-51. RAFWEB profiles are just slightly (tongue firmly in cheek) incorrect. Drawings should show Mustang Mk.I in RAF TLS for period 5/42 to 10/42 when the Squadron was still based in the UK. They then converted to Hurricanes for the Torch landings in North Africa and flew Hurricanes and later Spitfires there - common for other units flying Tac/R in the MTO. The P-51 drawing of WU-B reflects the period from 4/43 to 7/43 in North Africa when No.225 had the four P-51s. They had four only and they were rarely all serviceable at the same time. The Squadron continued to fly Spitfire VBs right through the period they had the four Mustangs. No.225 Sqdn did not operate Mustang Mk.IIs. (Thanks to a fellow researcher with access to the 225 ORBS for the detail in above answer). RAFWEB draws on a lot of material from various sources, but their profiles are certainly hit and miss in terms of accuracy and a lot of them are done 'cookie cutter' style, using a basic aircraft profile template with the Squadron specific detail added on. Again they get caught in the conundrum of someone publishing something in a book or magazine years ago based on less than stellar or accurate research and it gets perpetuated on. As an example, I recently purchased an example of a book that is supposed to be well regarded as one of the classics of P-51 Mustang history and detail, but the sections covering early RAF use of the type is riddled with errors of fact and includes descriptions of operations that certainly don't appear in any official RAF records. Then in a more recent magazine article which includes information on early RAF use of the Mustang, there are the same errors restated (but I know the source!) to a new audience and taken as 'fact'. Regards,

Dave, In looking for a reason for this aircraft to be painted in 'temporary' colours by NAA at that time, the closest reasoning I could find was the final acceptance by the RAF of the Mustang Mk.I with suitable modifications as suitable for tropical service was around the timeframe this aircraft was leaving the factory in the US. So if NAA wanted a photo of a Mustang in tropical colours to promote this fact, it would provide the reason. There are many aspects of that particular photo that just don't add up in its colour and appearance. Regards,

I would caution against taking the photograph of Mustang Mk.IA FD442 in a desert camouflage scheme too seriously. A fellow researcher and myself have examined this photograph, as well as the known recorded history of FD442 through manufacture, delivery and into RAF service and there is nothing to indicate this aircraft was ever painted in anything other than the standard NAA delivery scheme from the factory to arrival in the UK. That scheme being the US interpretation of the RAF temperate scheme - dark green, earth brown and sky with early style national markings. The camouflage pattern shown in the photograph of FD442 matches that of the NAA factory applied pattern for the temperate scheme, as is the national markings. After arrival in the UK, and in common with all the other Mustang Mk.IAs delivered to the RAF it was stripped down after re-assembly and painted into a standardised pattern RAF day fighter scheme comprising dark green, ocean grey and medium sea grey, with sky spinner and rear fuselage id band, yellow wing leading edge id stripes and latter pattern national markings (Type B, Type C1 and Type C using one set on nomenclature). It went to the Air Fighting Development Unit at Duxford, photographed there in the DFS c&m, and was the aircraft modified and flown by Squadron Leader ‘Mac’ MacLachlan DSO DFC on his intruder operations over France in June-July 1943. FD442 was lost on the second of these operations, crashing in France. For those operations it was reportedly repainted in an overall dark olive green shade. The location in which it is photographed very closely matches that used for a number of other NAA factory photographs of early Allison Mustang aircraft. There is the sequence of B&W NAA factory photos in the US Library of Congress collection showing Mustang Mk.IA aircraft in final stages of preparation and testing at the NAA factory, with serials around this aircraft. In that same set there are also the well known colour photos showing a mix of USAAF destined P-51 and RAF destined Mustang Mk.IA aircraft getting final preparation, the RAF ones in the temperate scheme. We have a belief that the original photograph may have been in b&w and been colourised either by someone at NAA for promotional purposes to show a Mustang in desert colours, or at a later date by someone else separate to NAA for their own purposes. There are aspects to the colour saturation and hues that just don't seem right. Returning to the P-51 (it was not a Mustang Mk.IA - there are detail differences) used by No.225 Squadron is open to much conjecture to what its actual camouflage scheme was. There has been supposition around a repaint into a RAF MTO desert scheme at MU or unit level, as well as more recently the more simplified addition of mid stone over the original USAAF olive drab over neutral grey scheme with RAF national markings overpainted on the location of the US markings. Identification letters, both the pale blue - possibly the same colour as used for the underside if in an RAF desert scheme, or alternately in white. The source of this aircraft being in a RAF MTO desert scheme from a quick dig around goes back a long way to at least the 1970s and is based on very few photographs. Therefore the original interpretation, was it based on some original 'eye witness' material provided to a researcher or author back in the 1970s or earlier, or was it an assumption back then that "if it is an RAF aircraft and it is in the MTO, it must be in the RAF desert scheme?" So at this point in time, nothing definitive on the No.225 Squadron P-51 c&m. Regards,

Ah, FD535 'X', one of the longest serving Mustangs with No.268 Squadron. FD535 was a Mustang Mk.IA, not a Mk.II. First recorded with the Squadron on 3 February 1944 having previously been serving with No.170 Squadron. Last recorded with the Squadron flying operationally on 13 April 1945, having completed 179 operational sorties just with No.268 Squadron! It is one of the known Mustang Mk.IA aircraft to have been fitted both with the oblique camera behind the cockpit, but also the vertical rear camera in the rear fuselage with the lens between the radiator outlet and tail wheel. Photographic evidence of other Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II aircraft that No.268 Squadron was equipped with at the time indicates the repainting of the upper wing and lower wing roundels to the type with the thing yellow outer ring, with dimensions similar to the fuselage roundel. Certainly the photos I have show an upper wing roundel smaller than the dimensions of the previous red/blue upper wing roundel and evidence of repainting of the camouflage on some aircraft to make the overall dimensions smaller than the previous roundel style. There looks as if there could be some variation between those aircraft that had the markings changed at the Squadron level, and those that were re done as a part of a major servicing at a MU. As it is FD535 went into a major servicing in mid to late December 1944 and came back repainted in accordance with the new directives, but as interpreted by 2TAF. Given the Squadron's Mustangs operated at low levels and in pairs, usually well beyond the frontline, having higher visibility large roundels on the wing upper surface was seen as compromising the camouflage. Whereas having higher visibility smaller roundels, same size dimensions as the fuselage roundels was seen as a better compromise between identification and camouflage. In this time the Squadron did have a number of its Mustangs intercepted by over eager fighter types, RAF and USAAF, and lost one pilot to 'friendly fire'. HTH Regards,

Maurice, The gun sight shown in the Martlet II manual matches the photos in the A&AEE report showing the ST-1A and also matches photos of the N3-A. See here, about halfway down the page for a photo Ref No.390 of a N3-A from a P-40/Mustang: http://www.warbirdsite.com/museumgunsights.html And also here the main body of the gun sight is 9th one down on the page - it is missing the top section that carries the reflector glass. The manufacturer's plate on this one says S8, but it is essentially another 'clone' of the ST-1A/N3 series gun sight. Some of the variations in designation were linked to the contract, the electrical power for the light bulb (12V vs 24V) to match various aircraft types and variations in the design of the top section and reflector glass (larger, smaller, different angle, different design of range rings, modifications to the side 'ears' that support the sight glass, single/dual bulb). http://www.spitfirespares.com/spitfirespar...s/gunsites.html The presence of the backup ring and bead sight is pretty much standard. HTH.

From the research I have been doing, the ST-1A was a US manufactured gun sight fitted to a number of US manufacturer supplied aircraft. The P-400 Airacobra supplied to the RAF and the N.A. Mustang Mk.I as supplied to the RAF both had the ST-1A as the original supplied gun sight and the original RAF type documentation notes the use of the ST-1A gun sight. It was the manufacturer designation for a N3-A equivalent gun sight, and also appears to have been fitted to some P-40s and the Airacobras sent to Russia. There are AM files at Kew with A&AEE trials of the ST-1A gun sight in the Airacobra with a long list of recommended modifications to make it more suitable and acceptable for RAF use. It was being supplied from 1940 until at least 1942. ST = STAR manufacturing, I've also seen references to Sight Targeting/Type - 1 Aircraft as being other permutation of what the ST-1A stands for. Regards,

The camera aiming marks would tend to be on both wings as the F.24 camera could be set up to point out either side of the fuselage. There were camera ports in both sides of the fuselage. The camera aiming marks I've seen done as red, white or yellow, obviously using paint available to hand to touch up the national markings. The aircraft in the Fighter Reconnaissance Squadrons using the type during wartime tended to set up all aircraft the same as aircraft were not normally allocated to a pilot. The Squadron OC and the Flight Commanders might have a usual or preferred aircraft, but there was no guarantee other pilots would not fly it if the need arose. Aircraft would be allocated to pilots based on serviceability and the sortie they were to fly. Post war, the habits and arrangements changed where pilots did tend to have an aircraft allocated to them as the Squadrons settled more into a peacetime operational routine. I've found a number of discrepancies in the aircraft cards and various published histories where an aircraft is shown on the card as being with a MU or GSU, but the aircraft was already out with the Squadron being flown and recorded in the ORBs and pilot's log books. I've found a couple of examples where aircraft are recorded as being allocated/issued to a Squadron, but there is no record of it anywhere in the Squadron or pilot records. As with any record keeping, errors creep in.