thebig-bear

Oh, really? That's very interesting. Thank you for the explanation.

This is what I also suspect was the most likely scenario, at least as to why we have mention of the name. In that regard, I should still like to find out more about the "CMP Y5333H" note that is hand-written beside the Chevrolet swatch that I featured on page one. If someone (particularly in Canada) could but tell us what that reference means, it might lead to the answer we are looking for.

The example of "PLYSU 5929 W." springs to mind - surely PLYSU should have been SUPLY (as seen elsewhere in the documents, and is itself misspelt!) "So, and with respect to whoever said it, "Canadian Sand" on CMP FATs was clearly and definitely supposed to be BS Light Stone. How closely Canadian-produced Light Stone matched British-produced Light Stone is a question. But "by the book" it was the same colour. And then of course there would have been Australian and South African produced Light Stone on their B vehicles in Egypt......... If I had to take a swag, I would suggest that whoever said "Canadian Sand" was perhaps comparing Light Stone with Portland Stone. And perhaps they were the first vehicles he had seen or his unit had received finished in Light Stone. Remember the "Caunter Blue" comparison misconception for decades from a misinterpreted period recollection....... So I would have to class myself as a complete sceptic for CMP FATs being anything other than Light Stone - caveated as Canadian version of." That is a good point - apparently, it is known that Australian production of Khaki Green No.3 was notably different from the British Standard, being somewhat greener. Perhaps Canadian production of Light Stone was noticeably more golden/tan in colour? However, in that case, where did the name come from? At the very least, someone must have considered it to be an equivalent or something. As you say, we will probably never know.

Personally, I believe the answer may be both yes and no at the same time. With regard to it's possible use on Grants, I think it was probably never implemented (if there was ever any intent to do so in the first place), as the time frame seems too short, and it is not clear to what the documents are referring in any case. On the other hand, the very mention of that specific name must have meant something to someone, even were it used in error, and in my opinion shows clearly that some colour that was distinct from the normal "standard" of the day may have been in use on some Canadian manufactured vehicles at the very least. That, combined with the anecdotal evidence you have, suggests that there is something to this, somewhere, at some level. Just as Khaki Green No.3 was specified very particularly by name (and has since been discovered to have been exactly what they meant), then perhaps this is the same? It's simply a matter of to what do they actually refer! As Kingsman says above, it could very well be a case of "Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance", especially as there are three different nations involved, all with their own words and ideas of what that name might mean.

Fair enough. But, as the subject evolved, I really can't see how else to have done it, as dividing it up into segments with separate threads for each would have been far too disjointed, at least in my opinion, with no connection between them. Strictly speaking, neither situation is truly ideal, I suppose, but there it is. I'm sorry if I caused offence, as that was not my intention, but instead to be critical while remaining respectful. In which case, that is a thread worth considering for the future, then. Thank you for the offer of material.

A couple of points; Firstly, I'm sure Mike's mention of the US "Light Earth", etc, was simply to bring it to our attention. I don't believe it was to in any way challenge our thoughts on whether Coronado Tan was ever implemented, but merely to inform us and possibly bring about informed debate - isn't that the whole point of our (the thread's) discussions? - discussions which, may I add, formed the catalyst for all that has been subsequently learned. Further to this point, I hope you won't mind if I challenge your persistent comments on why you believe a thread has a finite lifespan? While I believe there is such a thing as flogging a dead horse, it is surely for any and all individuals (including new-comers) to decide if and when a subject is dead. As I believe there are still a few questions that we may collectively wish to discuss further (with the continuing hope of leading to new avenues of discovery), such as my looking into the subject of Brewster Green, for instance, I don't think it is right to say that this subject is closed. It is, after all, still the continuation of what started out as the possible use of one colour on Grants, leading to what was used in it's place. With the greatest respect (and I really do mean that), you were the one who initially refused to believe that any US armour was ever produced in anything besides OD. We (and most particularly yourself) have since proved, as near as we can, that Khaki Green was used on production of Grants. That discovery, for which you provided the evidence, was brought about by the discussions within this thread and others like it. Personally, I don't care if a thread ends up being 6 pages long or 60 pages - if it is still providing useful, interesting content, what does it matter how long it is? Surely, it will end of it's own accord when there is no further interest from all parties. Yes, this thread may have started out as one looking for the elusive Coronado Tan, but by going off at a tangent, we have made the quite significant discovery of Khaki Green No. 3 being used on Grants, and for that I am glad. Secondly, I don't think it was ever Mike's intention (or mine) to start or re-start the "which shade of OD" debate (although I agree it would be a good place to start a new thread, if that is something people would like me to do - I imagined they would not, but please tell me if anyone feels otherwise), but simply to supply these swatches (with regard to this thread), so that, A; we might compare them with the Khaki Green No.3 and OD swatches he supplied to me previously, B; comparing them to the paint samples found inside the Grant and on Michael's exterior, and C; with regard to any possible substitute colours that may have been used in lieu of OD or Khaki Green No.3.

Firstly, may I wish everyone a Happy New Year! Now, hopefully, this will work - fingers crossed! Below is a comparison of various swatches of US Olive Drab (and one light green), sent to @Mike Starmer by a contact in the USA. This is what Mike has provided via the accompanying emails; I had the attachment from a contact in the USA who is carrying out a very deep analysis of the history of Olive Drab. The Light Green is the US colour. Searching for another item I came across an old Tankette article about US colours where the author stated that US tanks for the British in M.E. were painted 'Light Earth' which the British called 'Light Sand', No source is given but I suspect George Bradford's book of 1971 which has some dodgy conclusions and artwork. So when we read of this or that O/D is correct now we can only wonder which one is being referred to.

Having delved further, there appear to be two Brewster Greens, Medium and Light. The one which seems to match very well with our mystery green is Brewster Green Light (at least I believe it's that one) . Now, I'm not sure at the moment which PSC used of either the medium and light versions, or whether it was both - sources vary. However, I do know that both colours seem to have been readily available at the time. I'll keep digging.

@Kingsman, yes, I have heard that before, somewhere. (Also, Mike includes somewhere in his book a British instruction from later in the war regarding the addition of fine sand to dark brown paint when it is to be applied to helmets.) I'm assuming you refer to this re the need for a matte finish? However, from what I have been reading, it sounds to me as though this Brewster Green was available in many different forms besides gloss, such as eggshell and emulsion, so it was not necessarily a problem. Sorry, I meant to mention that in the earlier post. If I can find it I will include it, but as I have read so much about this colour this evening, I can't remember where it was just at the moment!

And compare the above with this: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F8722%2F16944509432_843c8450aa_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=01f7ac2d37a7312a834681b3fa6caae3f0ec9e17224213845db0edb118ce3a4f&ipo=images

Now for a few examples - Compare the above with these: https://oldchevytrucks.com/pt402g.html https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1932fordregistry.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F12%2F32-ford-williams-1024x683.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=579ad4feb7b54f5de335d37e3290a9390279af9e1f4692a04ad941347ae1acbd&ipo=images https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.schmitt.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F09%2F1930-Ford-Model-A-Deluxe-Rumble-Seat-Roadster-23.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=807792140635cb7870a532098839f0ffdeba3b36bc455f86292e456658f074f3&ipo=images

This Brewster Green/Pullman Green is very interesting. When newly applied, it resembles something very much akin to Middle Bronze Green, though maybe a tad darker (just like the patches Kingsman said he found on the right side, and why I made that particular suggestion), but it later ages and fades to a slightly less yellow and maybe a little more washed out green, not unlike that found inside the vision slit on the side door. It was a readily available paint of the period, being made by Dupont among others, for use right through the '30s and into the '40s by lots of different auto manufacturers (and is indeed still used today, being a popular colour on Porsches, apparently, although that seems a shade darker than seen on coaches - but then, the Porsches have a high gloss finish, so maybe that is having an effect?). It was used regularly as one of the main colours by the Pullman-Standard Company for their rolling stock in the US, so it was therefore on-hand and ready to use in bulk within the factory. So, all in all, there are a lot of points which are starting to fit together quite nicely. Having looked at probably a few hundred photos of this colour this evening, I'm really starting to think this might be our mystery green. I will keep digging.

This page might be of interest. https://utahrails.net/pass/pullman-green.php

Here is a definite possibility. I'm investigating further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_Company#/media/File:Chandler-Arizona_Railroad_museum-Superintendent's_Car-1927.JPG Edit: Looks like it could be either Pullman Green, made by Dupont, or another similar colour used by the Santa Fe Railroad called Santa Fe Coach Green. Still investigating. Further Edit: Seems to be Pullman-Standard's "Brewster Green" (aka Pullman Green) that we are after. Looks promising. Still investigating.

Good to know, @JackG. I had never heard that. There seem to have been similar crossovers here in the UK, as Middle Bronze Green was used by the Southern Railway on their locomotives and passenger rolling stock in the 1920s and early to mid '30s, while "Express Passenger Green" - as used on British Railways' locomotives in the 1950s and '60s - was apparently none other than Deep Bronze Green. These colours were, of course, also famously used in the automotive industry. So I agree, Kingsman's theory is quite plausible.