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Ships doc

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  1. Another good reference is 'The life and ship models of Norman Ough' - has some of his drawings reproduced with the accompanying notes. I think vents are included. As far as I know, the vent dimensions were not entirely standardised, lots of variation. For a 1/350 pow though you probably don't need to worry too much about that. For smaller vents I tend to use two sizes or square or round styrene stacked. Maybe some photo etch for the mesh if available. To get the height you can judge from photos - look for a sailor standing next to one. The best reference would probably be the as fitted plans from the national maritime museum, but even on these there might just be a sketch of the vent. Plus very expensive Good luck
  2. Not sure about this one! I can't find any other similar photos. Was she being refitted in March? The scheme may only have been on for a few days? I need to do some more reading....
  3. I think probably yes, from 1943 onwards, with the octuple pom poms. In this photo you can just see the back of one of the Yagi arrays for a type 282 radar on the director platform (highest bridge level). https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157919 There is also a photo in the man o war county class book which looks like there are type 282 radars behind the main range finder.
  4. Here is an attempt at the starboard profile. The percentage area is indicated by each colour (as measured in ImageJ software). Reassuringly, the weighted average RF for this initial try also works out as 13.3% mean RF. I am not sure if this match port vs starboard can be taken as evidence of correctness of this combination though - other combinations also come out very close to each other. And my outlines are not 100% accurate to the ship.
  5. Yes it's the place to go! I have been struggling with this profile for a long time, but think we may have made progress in the last few weeks with the help from everyone here @dickrd @Vlad @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies. Here is the updated profile, taking into account the value from the camouflage observation report. This is quite surprising given what is published on Suffolk's profile, the scheme is much darker than I expected. However the written report is the only direct evidence of the scheme I've heard of, and I think we can have reasonable confidence in this, given how close the calculated RF figure comes to 12%, and also the combinations used for dark Admiralty disruptive patterns for smaller ships. A test will be how close the starboard profile comes out. For comparison, an old photo of my model of HMS Suffolk in 1/96 scale. This is painted in the former Colourcoats range 507a/MS3/507c. The model was as good as I could do at the time, but there are a few errors in addition to the camouflage. 1) The bridge should be covered, I have found better images since I built the ship. 2) Wood decks should be darkened. Steel decks probably MS1 or dark grey non-slip. At the time I had spent 3 months planking the deck so I was reluctant to ruin it with grey paint without more evidence. 3) Boot topping should probably not be there. 4) There should only be one Walrus aircraft! You can't see the other one in the hangar. However Suffolk's action report from the Bismarck action reports only on Walrus was on board, but it was out of service at the time so could not be used.
  6. Thanks @dickrd - I think we are doing the same search! I found the one below of HMCS Iroquois which matches the dark disruptive pattern for the tribal class in CAFO 679/42. There is some MS4 in this one too, the midships => stern pattern is relevant though. This assumes the RCN were using the British tones in this case. I will keep looking but no luck on 4 stackers, E&F or JKN yet. Noted that this CAFO contains lots of examples of MS1/B5/MS3. Also in the accompanying text - I) MS3 is the tone used for athwartships surfaces & masts, not MS4 and II) decks are MS1 which I think matches Suffolk. I'm assuming that the principles were scaled to the larger ships? Also - it seems quite hard to find examples of dark disruptive patterns - would this be in keeping with perceived lack of efficacy? Could @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies provide the RGB code for B5 and I will draw up an example?
  7. I agree with all of the above - practice was highly varied, even within the same ship at the same time in some cases. Best to judge from photos of the ship if possible. @foeth's reference page is superb for all things RN. There are a few colour photos out there, such as this one on HMS Forth. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188377
  8. @Vlad yes that number of 12% gives us a lot to think about - the overall reflectance would be close to HFG 507a? So maybe the palette is shifted down from where I thought. Hmmm....
  9. Thanks @dickrd, very interesting! Does the 'type 12 approx' refer to the original 1941 design, or the observed result in 1942? I wonder if there is a patch of dark tone on the stern, just visible in the June 1941 aerial photo, which might bring down the average as designed. What do you think about B5? To me the mid and light tones seem very close, which is why I was favouring MS3 to go with MS4. Are you aware of any good examples where we know these tones are together for comparison? Do I remember that Suffolk was design number 2? Would there have been quite a lot of variation in the early designs, before practice was established? I am working on the pattern for the starboard side, which will be interesting to compare.
  10. @dickrd: I have measured the areas of the three tones for the port profile; and calculated weighted overall reflectance values for a variety of combinations as quoted in @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies references. Noted that we only think the top four are likely candidates as the dark tone is presumed to be MS1.
  11. Great 👍 This is why I did the port side first!
  12. Hi @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Yes I think so - done in Inkscape so this is RGB, not sure if that's the same as sRGB The tones seem very close to each other, but I think this matches the photographic references even better now. The distinctions between the light and medium tones are quite hard to spot in places, eg. on the after part of the bridge. Are you happy with the MS1? This is just a generic dark grayscale.
  13. Here is an attempt at the port side profile. The profile changed over time, as shown in the IWM photographs. There are quite a few on board photos taken in June 1941, which help with some of the details. There may be another patch of MS1 on the stern as shown in the aerial photo June 1941, but I am not sure. The hull paint is worn, and the mid tone is hard to make out with the angle of the light in that photo. The decks seem to be painted dark grey. There are also some photos not available online that were helpful in constructing this - from the 'Man O' War' county class book, and an overhead photo in Friedman's British Cruiser book.
  14. Thanks Jamie - Seems like consensus with MS1 (A) and MS4 (C). I agree 'drab' is the description. I'm not sure about the 4th tone D (lighter than MS4) - in some images there might be some patches on the starboard side, on the hangar. In the picture you've annotated I also noticed that area, but I think it might be where the paint has been reapplied - to my eye there is a vertical line extending down into the MS1 below, and a horizontal one extending forward, leaving a rectangle of worn paint forward above the waterline. I am trying to piece together a tone map - challenging because the scheme seemed to be altered over 1941. I will post when more progress but I have the basic line drawing now to work from.
  15. I have had a go at drawing some profiles of Suffolk to get an idea of how the colour combinations might look. Draft below- the pattern is simplified. Within the limitations of computer screens, my best guesses at close colours, converting B&W to colour etc. I think the MS1/MS3/MS4 combination looks the most convincing compared to the photos. The MS3 is definitely too green though, and the MS1 too dark. The first one is the Warship Perspectives suggestion The others are combinations of MS1 with either MS3/B5 and MS4/507c Comments welcome!
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