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V Line

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  1. I suggest your best bet with the spinner is to find a spare from the Hasegawa or Revell kits. This has a roughly correct spinner diameter although it is several inches (1/1) too long. The various kits differ in dimensionally, but if crafting from scratch ,for the correct look, the base diameter should be marginally less than that of the diameter of the nose collar taken at the panel line beneath the exhaust. Total length should be a little over 25 inches. I suggest your biggest challenge lies in replicating the blades which look in the photograph in the linked thread to be DR/DA 291 types. As Troy suggests above, the Aires offer is quite inaccurate. Goodness knows what they were thinking with that particular offering. The Rotol blades in the Hasgawa/Revell kit are passable with some re-shaping. The diameter would be 10ft 10ins, so an inch at scale off each blade.
  2. Geoffrey, Your narrative is, as usual, comprehensive and educational. The business of propeller production was large, complex and pressurised. I cross referenced the report extracts against the data I have. AY6 is a governor not spinner –used on a number of Hercules powered Stirling, Beaufighter Wellington and Halifax types. I do not believe spinners were used on Halifax dH hydromatics at any point (two types for Rotol). Spinners were however fitted to some hydromatics used on the Stirling, Beaufighter, Wellington and Lancaster. I can find no reference whatsoever to Rotol Dural blades for Halifax aircraft although there were two magnesium blade types which I suspect were probably phased out by mid-war. Regarding Halifax 4 blade propeller types, there was a certain amount of re-designation going on and I believe there were only two variants. Each used blades which were also found on some 3 blade types: R34/4B5/4(formerly R7/4B5/4)-RA 682 – 13ft diameter R34/45B/5- DB 1140—12ft 9ins diameter I have no dates for this but it seems the Merlin versions were phased out in favour of Hercules variants by war’s end. The 1945 and post-war Halifax and Halton were Hercules/dH fitted. Prompted by the O.P. I had a particular reason to look at this aircraft’s 3 blade prop listings and as it’s Christmas I will share them with readers of this thread: Rotol (Merlin) RH Rotation Dia 13ft –RA682 (Also used on Whitley) 12ft 9ins-DR1140 (also used on Whitley) 12ft – RA4071 (also used on Whitley) 12ft 6ins- RA10041 (Magnesium)-different spinner to above 12ft 6ins- RA4041 (Magnesium)-ditto – (I believe this to be the first blade used on production aircraft-see below second prototype). de Haviland (Hercules) LH Rotation I believe only two types, both of 13ft diameter (although some constructional detail variations indicated by ‘dash numbers.’) P4551169A P4551775A The PX.500 hub assembly in @canberra kid’s post above was used on Halifax Hercules VI, XVI and 100-Prop types 55/18, 55/19 and 55/19a. Blades P4551169A-17, P45517775A-17,ditto, respectively. There were several additional prop (hub) types but for the modeller the main focus will be the blade element. In the absence of blade drawings, measurements or originals for comparison it can be very difficult to identify prop blades in contemporary photographs (even assuming one can be found). As an example, Spitfire 1 to V dH types are straightforward as there were only two! By contrast Hurricane Rotols are less easy. From 1941 there was an increasing number of variants, further complicated by some of same types having different style blade tips. Then you have the common factors of camera angles, perspective, pitch positions etc. I have not been able to distinguish between blades shown on photos of Hercules engined Halifax aircraft. Assuming the photos I examined included both types one assumes there is little visual difference at scale. Nevertheless, the drawing numbers were different and grappling with the dH blade numbering system it seems that the ‘77A’ was a shorter variant of the late Short Stirling blade. The ‘69A’ was a longer version of the later Wellington blade. Both were ‘flared’ or ‘semi flared ‘ (‘paddlebade’ in US speak). Photo of Friday the 13th and crew to finish.
  3. That's a great photo(saved!).Does it relate to the page extract? The P.X500 number shown on the page extract is the hub assembly designation, denoting in this case a hydromatic 3-blader with a Number 5 blade. The complete propeller installation i.e. including the blade would be identified by the M.A.P. designation e.g.55/18.
  4. Based on my research, I believe the Halifax holds the title of ‘British Wartime Aircraft with Largest Number of Specified Propeller Types.’ Setting out all the detail out would be a major exercise. As an alternative, I hope the following points are of use. As at March 1943 there were 24 specified Rotol types. I haven’t totalled the number to 1945. I do not have a direct date comparison for dH types, but in total up to 1945 there were 7 or so specified propeller types for this aircraft. I have blade listings for both Rotol and dH but not yet totalled. It appears that up to 1943, Rotol propellers were used exclusively with the Merlin X, XX and 20 engines. Alternative engine variants had dH. Rotol prop diameters ranged, 12ft, 12ft 6ins, 12ft 9ins and 13ft. The first Rotol Halifax blades were magnesium. The remainder wood, with various different finishes. According to my information all Halifax dH props were 13ft radius. The Halifax 4 blade props were Rotol ‘B’ types, which were flight tested in the Autumn of 1943.The documents that I have read indicate that the production of same was seen as a priority by M.A.P. There were two ‘B’ variants, being of 13ft and 12ft 6ins diameter (Other props may have been used on later variants). On the matter of the props used on ‘Friday the 13th’, these were dH hydromatics and thus of 13ft diameter. The blade drawing number was probably P4551175A-17 or P4551169A-21. The Beaufighter dH props were (according to my notes) all of 12ft 9ins diameter and thus of lesser radius than the Halifax dH types. This in itself would be an issue for modellers in using Beaufighter props on a Halifax kit. Technically speaking, the closest blade would be the P4551778A-17 used with aircraft fitted with Herculese VI and XVII engines. As to whether or not there are kit or aftermarket parts which would approximate to these designs, that would be something for the modeller to determine.
  5. The following abstract from a report of an Air Staff liaison meeting on 20th June 1939 sheds some light on the fitting of armour to the Hurricane: It was stated that there ‘were about 70 Hurricanes in service with a certain amount of (armour) protection but that only 15 were fully protected Delivery of completely protected Hurricanes should (it was noted) start around September that year.
  6. It was not the practise of dH to have blade information stencils during 1940.Blade identification markings were situated on the base of the blade as shown in the example below. Link for more photos below: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/need-help-identifying-ww2-propeller-blade-halifax.46240/ To facilitate the identification of propeller blades stencils were applied to the front faces by dH during late 1945. American built Hamilton Standard blades used on import aircraft and on some British–built aircraft, did carry stencils although originally at least these could be located on the lower rear face of the blade rather than on the front face. Initially at least, they were of a rather discreet style. Curtiss blades used appear to have retained their standard US stencilling throughout. As far as Rotol blades are concerned, identification markings were applied to the blade adapter in a similar fashion to dH types. Blade markings in the shape of coloured disks identifying wood/covering type were applied to the lower blade faces seemingly from 1941/1942 although the blade drawing numbers were not shown until later. The style and substance of the markings developed through the war, during which the colour codings for the blade types were changed at least once.
  7. Unsure whether we have our left and right mixed up here. The blade on the left with the 'straighter' profile would be my bet for the Rotol as there is an obvious similarity. The one on the bottom left for the dH. Again, see photos above.
  8. As I'm here: it's fairly easy to compare and contrast the blade profiles of the Rotol magnesium and the dH DP55409. Rear view of the latter: For the RA640 see above.
  9. The top left blade shape is clearly taken from a Mk V Rotol blade profile and would be inappropriate for a Mk II. The bottom left is possibly representative of the RA640 referred to above. The bottom right may be intended to represent a dH blade. HTH. p.s. The root is actually that section below the flared part of the blade.
  10. To the best of my knowledge the Rotol prop fitted to Mk I Spitfires during this period was the RX5/4, 10ft 9ins diameter with RA 640 magnesium blade (Merlin III) also later used on the Mk II (Merlin XII). This blade was one of those tested during 1939 and used with the airscrews first fitted to aircraft delivered to 19 Squadron (probably single machine) and 54 Squadron (November and December respectively). It seems there was a further delivery in July, the majority being received by 54 Sqdn. When writing of combat that had taken place on 24th May 1940, Deere stated that his Sqdn. ‘were doing trials’ on the Rotol C.S. prop (quoted in ‘Air Battle Dunkirk’). There are photos in early (1939) style markings of KL-O and KL-T so fitted to which I am unable to link but which @TroySmith has posted above. The blade section visible in the photo posted above by @wmcgill is clearly of the same type. There are close-up views of aspects of the blade, spinner and hub on the ‘French beach’ photos. Here is a Mk II with that blade: The ‘flared’ wood ‘Jablo’ blades seen on the Mk II were of 10ft 3ins diameter and began to make an appearance during mid/late August 1940, 611 Squadron being the first so equipped. Here is the well known photo of P7420, of 19 Sqdn. taken at Fowlmere during September 1940: As can be seen, the magnesium blade was that of a more typical contemporary steel/dural profile than the ‘Jablo’ blade of the Mk II and the Rotol variants which followed through to the Mk V.
  11. I took a look at the relevant sprue (?): https://www.super-hobby.fr/products/Fairey-Barracuda-Mk.II.html#gallery_start From this it strikes me that the shape doesn't look horrendous but trust the photo and dimensions above will assist you to match up to a DS 940 blade.
  12. As usual, very interesting information. You have added a further propeller type to the list in the R4/B5/1. Not included in Dervish’s copy of the AP, nor in my data. As your stats have taken us into 1945, I can add, for the Barracuda Mk V: Griffon VIII – R33/485/9 -12ft 6ins diameter- Weybridge blade Griffon 37 – R47/465/1 -12ft 6ins diameter – Jablo blade These would be of LH rotation. The detail that I have shared is taken from Rotol schedules. I had hoped to nudge the thread back in the direction of the actual blades, but there we go!
  13. You are quite right, but for the sake of completeness one should I believe add the RX/5/II for the Mk1 and R4/4B5/8 for the Mk2. As a general comment, to have the propeller type is always useful and I compile such detail. Interestingly, for de Havilland bracket propellers it seems the hub type and radius were specific and individual to a specified diameter and blade, although for Rotol types the position appears less clear cut. However, from the modeller’s viewpoint it must inevitably be the blade (and spinner) that is generally the focus. It is also where model manufactures appear often fail in the accuracy stakes which is where the OP started. To an extent I sympathise with kit manufacturers. In the main, they will probably rely upon some basic information, generic shapes and photos. The degree of accuracy will therefore be variable although, very often a little more research would pay dividends. Then again, is it worth the bother? The shape of DS(or DA)940 blade (or for that matter any other period blade) is quite a difficult thing to pin down from photos given the unique circumstances of each capture. I am reasonably certain this photo of R S Tuck and ‘Ginger’ Lacy in front of a Hurricane on the ‘Battle of Britain’ film set shows this particular blade to good effect (certain other Hurricane Rotol blades look quite similar and it can be difficult to differentiate). However, without knowing the correct diameter, exposed blade height, aerofoil shape and chord dimensions, creating a scale facsimile is almost impossible. This particular blade was also used on several aircraft. On the Hurricane fitted with the DS940, the diameter is 11ft 3ins compared with the 11ft 9ins/11ft 8.5ins of the Barracuda and 11ft 9ins of the Defiant II. This illustrates my point regarding the differing Rotol propeller diameters using exactly the same blade. The standard hub radius for the 3 blade Rotol is 6 inches, increasing to 8 inches for the 4 blader. This will account in some respect for the increased diameter in the case of the Mk II Barracuda. In the case of the 3 blade hub, together with the former, the principal difference will be through the use of different blade adapters. The blade adapter can be seen in this photo of Hurricane P3175 at Hendon. This is the section attached to the bottom of the blade which inserts into the bearing housing which in turn inserts into the hub: This is quite different to the dH/Hamilton Standard steel or dural blades which were adjusted for length/diameter principally through a process of ‘cropping’ or ‘cutting down’ from the tip of the master blade. This is not say that Rotol did not have some basic blade shapes which were scaled up or down but I have seen no documentary evidence to that effect.
  14. I was thumbing through some papers and came across a letter from the late Edgar Brooks published in SAM of unknown date. This info may well be in one of the linked threads above but here it is anyway. Edgar's measurements of Spitfire Mk IX ML417: Cowling 43.1mm Fuel tank 19.22mm Cockpit 20mm Radio comp 33.6mm Rear fuselage 56.9mm Total 172.8mm Figures are reduced to 1/48 scale.
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