LDSModeller

Not over spray, but the residue left by the masking tape used to mark out the white ID lines on the P 40's. The avgas soaked rags used to remove the coral dust off the aircraft, appears to have caused the residue to become more apparant and led to the "idea" about "Red| outer lines" to the white. And of course the printing of decals thus. The notoriety still continues in other ways, lots of RNZAF SME's out there (old saying, about a little knowledge........ ) Regards Alan

Hi everyone, Some really cool looking subjects being posted for this group build Per my initial post, some photos. You may notice in this photo that there are two different colours in plastic, I thought at first it was Airfix/Italeri, but on closer inspection it's all Italeri. (No boxing though) The original decals with the lower vis Kiwi Roundel The fuselage halves - interestingly the Port side main gear sponsoon was molded differently to the Starboardside Nathan at the RNZAF Museum has kindly supplied me copies of the painting/marking instructions for the time. Now to wait for the Official start Regards Alan

Hi Ray, Many thanks for that information, one for the mention of the "Flight Path" replacement engines, I've found that Hannants currently have some in stock. Two for the width of the spacer on the outer engines Thanks/regards Alan

O Boy, I'm excited, been waiting for this one, so I thought I'd jump in first and post what I have to build. It's night time here in Auckalnd (2011 hours to be exact), so I haven't taken any photos as yet (tomorrow) as the light is not that great even with flash. I gave it all a wash in very mild soapy water last night, to air dry over night. So lead up to my build is as follows: I inherited a C-130H kit from my deceased father's stash, he had been planning to build another RNZAF C-130, so I'll complete it for him. He was ex RNZAF. The kit is a mixed one, of Italeri (90%) and Airfix (10%) issued by one of the Modelling importers here in the late 90's early 2000's - you could build it in the then Kiwi version of Euro 1. The kit has issues -obviously the engine nacelles too short, been collecting information on how I might correct this issue. The kit will be built in the delivery scheme of White/Silver, with 54" RNZAF Fern Leaf Roundels (probably Ventura - though may consider Old model version). It was 50 years ago this year when the first C130's arrived here to begin serving with 40 Squadron. The C-130's had not been here that long before they began to be deployed to Vietnam starting in 1965 going through to the fall of Saigon. My Mother mentioned when I was in Primary school (elementary) that my Dad was in Vietnam, but I had never heard him mention it nor did we see any of Vietnam, in any of his slide shows of places he had been to overseas - I know from his papers etc he spent tme with 40 Squadron, so???? Anyway onward and upward, pics to follow tomorrow Regards Alan

Bear in mind that the F4U-1 and 2 in Tri/4 colour scheme, would have worn ANA 607 Non Specular Sea Blue on the Fuselage upper and in the segment curving up from the wing root, but the Wings and Horizontal Stabs upper would have been ANA 606 Semi Specular Sea Blue and IMHO weathered slightly differently to the Matt Sea Blue. I'm not sure whether any of the above paints you mention do the Sea Blue (matt/semi gloss) other than GSB in various guises. Tamiya Sea Blue is too green and Humbrol used to make a Sea Blue (Gloss) but not sure if they have anything new in their recent updated range. This attached link is a VF 17 F4U at Green Island - might be of some help -note weathered condition https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8b/e2/f9/8be2f98794baf5168703d783113b3f27.jpg Regards Alan

With a 2mm skin, a rough sea certanly could stave in the lower planing hull. The Sunderland Captain could make a landing once given permission from their respective Base OC In his Book "Fly West Young Man" Ivan Southall an Australian Sunderland pilot during WWII, makes mention of flying over a downed Whitley crew. The 1st pilot made the decision (after gaining the above permission) to land, The seas were quite rough (as well the Atlantic can be), the pilot tried to land along a wave crest and well..... the Australians went swimming with the Whitley crew. Another Sunderland was called in to attempt the rescue. A Sunderland pilot I know told me of a crash a friend of his had, where the whole front of the hull stove in, pushing everything up into the flight deck. The flight deck crew only made it out because of the upper Flight Engineers hatch being open. Dogtailred 2 Nice Sunderland, they aways look their best when on the water If I could offer one piece of critique, and that is if the engines are shut down, the Sunderland wouldn't have that amount of wash around the hull. If they were going that fast, they would sail right past the poor men in the life raft To slow down, the Sunderland crew could have the Gouge flaps at full, or have deployed the water drouges from the galley hatches or both. Thanks for sharing your build with us. Regards Alan

Initial RAAF P 40N's were delivered in OD/NG - Note there was some tooing and froing between the USAAF and RAAF, Later on there were some airframes with both the RAAF and USAAF having OD/NG and NMF. The USAAF had a large pool of these aircraft in Aussie at the time. RNZAF P 40N's were All OD/NG http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/lsn.jpg Changes in RNZAF Roundels pretty much started with the arrival of the first US supplied aircraft to the RNZAF. P 40E's arrived with RAF type roundels which were DuPont Insignia colours. http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/P40sOhakeaSmall.jpg From 1943 things began to change with the Pacific type Roundel making an appearance ( you could have two aircraft in one squadron with both RAF style and Pacific Roundel) as in these 14 (F) Squadron P40E's http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/14Sqn.jpg With my post above about "Home based" aircraft still having the red centre , it was the aircraft departing for the war zone who had changes made to. That doesn't mean to say home based aircraft didn't wear the "Away" roundel - All very confusing I know. This is an airfield after the P 40's had returned back to New Zealand, ( the F4U-1 taking their place) note the roundel differences http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/P40ssmall.jpg Of course with RNZAF aircraft entering the fray against the Japanese, the"Red Meat ball" in the roundel centre became a problem. Too many RNZAF pilots on the receiving end of some trigger happy "Allied" pilots because they saw "Red" (Spilt Enz pun not intended ) The Roundel then went through a dramatic change, with the red meat ball being changed to a 1 inch dot (I kid you not) http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/PR1444small.jpg From there the Roundel evolved even more till the Roundel everyone it seems associates WWII RNZAF aircraft http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/oldcrowfilms/GloriaandErica.jpg The important thing to remember is that the Forward based aircraft Pacific Roundel didn't fade to that silly electric blue colour. If the roundel was to fade too much, the US star would show though as in this photo http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/nz5064p.jpg I pointed this out to a modeller building the new Tamiya F4U-a on another forum (including above photo) and was acussed of being a rivet counter - Obviiously we Kiwi's don't know what our own Air Force looks like (mini rant over) This quick summary is very basic, and is more involved. There is a very good article written by a Kiwi, which goes quite indepth into the whole evolution. PM me if you woul like to read it The Light Blue middle was further West..... Hope that helps? Regards Alan

And you didn't notice the RAAF Roundel under the wing ? Somehow I managed to put in the link to the RAAF 76 Sqn P 40 M, from a post further above, all fixed now Speaking of multi colours, some RNZAF P 40 M's did have the "Medium Green" splotches. Regards Alan

P 40M's receievd by the RNZAF were received under the Lend Lease act and arrived in USAAF colours of Olive Drab and Neutal Grey This is an RNZAF P 40 off of Pete Mossongs site and is as delivered OD/NG http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/p40atmo.jpg Colour photo http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/strip.jpg One of the most famous RNZAF P 40M's was/is Geoff Fiskens "Wairarapa Wildcat" was in OD/NG - again from Pete Mossongs website http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/geofisk.jpg http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/nz3072b.jpg Re: Pete Mossongs comments about Sky Grey, Pete states thus If you look closely at the colour chip comment supplied on Pete's site he states thus: I stand by my previous statement in my post above that I believe the colour NZ Sky Grey is an attempt to copy the DuPont colour 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey which is the colour of the undersides of P 40E's which arrived in New Zealand in 1942. This link shows the actual DuPont colour 71-021 I have in my possession. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1VS00MVFaR04ycjg/view?usp=sharing During WWII, in the Pacific, the RNZAF had the Pacific Roundel, Blue/White/ Blue (red centre being changed, as trigger happy allies thought our aircraft were Japanese). This roundel was in use on aircraft in the forward operating theatres. Back in New Zealand the Pacific roundel was also in use on some aircraft, F4U Corsairs come to mind. The blue on this was different to the Pacific Roundel in the Forward theatres, it was known as "Ident Blue" Aircraft used in training/ other tasks (Ansons/Oxfords/Harvards et el) in New Zealand, still retained the red centre in the RNZAF Roundel. P 40's were used in training aircrew in single engined fighters . There is a good profile of a P 40K used for training 4 OTU Ohakea June 1944, in New Zealand on page 33, of Charles Darby's "RNZAF- The First Decade" with a red centre in fuselage roundel with the Ident blue outer, see bottom image on link below https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1Mk1JTTItaHhzQzg/view?usp=sharing P 40's arriving back in New Zealand in 1944 from the frontline forward areas, retained the Pacific Roundel for a period, or till wars end. Those that were not placed in open storage (Rukuhia) were turned trainer Many were given repaints in Foliage Green/ Sky Grey and its probable that the Pacific Roundel had a red centre added again Regards Alan

As there was no FS system in WWII RAAF/RNZAF paint colours (or any where for that matter) I'm dubious of companies quoting FS numbers especially for RAAF/RNZAF colours. During WWII BALM manufactured paints for both New Zealand & Australia, and I find it interesting that a number of colours on aircraft are shared by the two forces. Issues with the decal sheet It's of interest that the ADF Serials website had listed A29-359 with 76 Squadron coded SV-X. Edit thus photo link is of another 76 Squadron aircraft A29-354 SV-T looking at the lower colour IMHO its not Sky Grey (as in grey colour) http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Kittyhawk/P016344.jpg I also note that the RNZAF P 40 M, they have listed with 4th F OTU??? NZ3061 served with 2 OTU at Ohakea and I would think the middle of the Pacific Roundel would be red not blue. Concerning RAAF codes colours However I have a document from the RAAF with orders for the markings and codes dated 4.1.43 the order comes under this heading: A.F.C.O. A.3 - Code Letters for Operational and Reserve Squadrons (62/1/271 - 4.1.43) Skip to page 2 Section 9 reads: "The colour of the code letters is to be Dope Camouflage Sky Blue, Ident. No. K3/195 for all aircraft" Regards Alan

If the RAAF "Sky Grey" is a BALM paint, then it will most likely be the same as used on our RNZAF P40's. The actual colour is a Blue/Green colour, which I believe is a copy (or attemp to copy) of the DuPont colour 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey. Typically Aussies & Kiwi's just shortened it to Sky Grey. Regards Alan

Hi All, Wow this has come up faster than I anticipated (thoughts of Mice & Men come to mind ). Any how, It's here (and has been for 10 days) and I still haven't posted my build- needed to rectify that. Before I begin my Post speel, I would like to take the time to say, what an absolutely magnificent turn out - Really, I am blown away with the topic varieties. I have read through them all. Way to go guys!!!! Kudos to you all I have settled on building a Hawker Hurricane Mk I, to be precise the Airfix 1/24 Scale version. As in most battles/wars New Zealanders have fought in, I would like to build an aircraft that a New Zealander had flown. Famous New Zealanders are the likes of Keith Park, Al Deere, Colin Grey, Wilf Clouston etc. I would like to honour a not so famous Kiwi. Two have come to mind from 87 Squadron from the Battle of Britain. 1) Squadron Leader Terence Gunion Lovell-Gregg, KIA August 15 1940, incumbant OC of 87 Squadron - need to find the individual aircraft code letter -Work in Progress 2) Flight Liutenant Derek Harland Ward joined 87 Squadron during the Battle of France, appointed B Flight leader August 11, and downed a Me 110 on August 15 1940. Survived the Battle of Britain, and KIA over Egypt 1942. The obligatory photos Kit Parts Colour Profile for an 87 Squadron aircraft, LK-A Ian Gleeds mount Now prior to the GB start I checked with our Mods to make sure I could build this, as it had been started previous in another Battle of Britain GB. The Merlin Engine parts Still more to do on the Merlin, so watch this space! Fuel or oil tank -just glued at present Thanks for looking in. Regards Alan

Thanks for that Stew. P/O JR Cock was an Australian in the RAF and from what I have read, scored the first aerial kill by an Australian in WWII. He had the misfortune of being shot down by Helmut Wick in Hurricane LK-V (?) V7233, August 11/1940. He survived the encounter. In 1983 his aircraft was later recovered (or parts thereof) and now resides at Tangmere Aviation Museum. http://www.aviationarchaeology.co.uk/AA/ex10_Dig1940_Hurricane.html It's so fascinating what you find out about not only these airmen, but also these aircraft they flew. Thanks/regards Alan

Hi Steve, I feel the same way about finding these Kiwi's that are not well known (if known) generally at all. While looking into 87 Squadron, I came across another Kiwi. His name was Flt/Lt Derek Harland Ward originally from Whangarei (pronounced phonetically "Fong-a- ray (or Fuung-a -ray). He ended up with 87 Squadron in France, though originally with 151 Squadron. He ended up staying with 87 Squadron and appointed "B" Section flight commander, see history here http://www.bbm.org.uk/WardDH.htm What's of interest is that the "Coat of Arms" in the photo in above actually (from what I have read), belonged to one P/O JRCock. P/OCock's aircraft from what I can find was LK-M (P3394). It appears (to me) that Ft/Lt Ward also flew the same aircraft which fits in with Grahams comments above about "M" being the B section leaders aircraft. See link below post #11 http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?94924-Spitfire-girls Ward survived the Battle of Britain and was KIA in Egypt 1942. If I can't go with Lovell-Gregg's aircraft, I can look at Wards. Regards Alan

Airgunner, Thanks for the additional information - I would be quite interested too, in what you might find -thank you for the offer, much appreciated. As I did some reading on Lovell-Gregg, I came to the conclusion that he hadn't flown that many, if any sorties with 87 Squadron operationally, and your mention of 1 fits the bill. Interestingly enough he had quite the RAF career flying Wapiti's and a conversion on float planes, but it appeared to me that he didn't really get much in the way of squadron command experience. I had a long think about Tony's comment about the OC (generally) flying the squadron aircraft with the letter A. It wasn't till I read that Lovell-Gregg was attached to 87 Squadron as a "supernumerary", and after the incumbant OC left, Lovell -Gregg was given command. Flying B section as you and Edgar posted, was to help him gain experience, and explains to me anyway why Ian Gleed was flying aircraft A. Thanks/regards Alan

Very Nice set of diorama's. Nice to see the RNZAF P40 Gloria Lyons Couple of comments: Is the setting for your diorama in New Zealand or in the forward Pacific theatre? If in New Zealand, it would be after the P 40's returned home, so would be Olive Drab upper or later Foliage green/Sky Grey (Green/Blue colour). Reason I ask, is the tree looks like its Autumn or early Winter and the flying suit appropriate If in the Pacific, would be Green Olive Drab, and the pilot would be in Khaki's. Thanks for sharing your photos. Regards Alan

Edgar, Thank you so very much for this information, especially about the ORB not having the individual code. In thinking about B Flight, and thinking of Tony's comment above, about squadron CO's flying the aircraft with the letter "A" (15 August was Flt Lt Gleed in LK-A who was not the CO then) would it be possible that the lead aircraft for B flight, Lovell Gregg was flying, may be LK-B? Or am I way off? Not with standing any possible answer to my last query, many thanks again Edgar Regards Alan

Always nice to see a 488 Squadron Buffalo, equally it being Noel Sharp's aircraft Some FYI's for modellers buildinga RAF 339 Buffalo and especially a 488 Squadron aircraft. All RAF 339E's arrived with the ventral windows unpainted and to my knowledge remained that way. Noel Sharps aircraft only had the Dragon Motiff on the Port side. 488 Squadron codes were actually Sky, not Medium Sea Grey 488 Squadron was not an RNZAF squadron per se, Read on: 488 Squadron was actually an "Article XV" squadron, the same as 453 Squadron in Singapore. So should be written 488 (NZ) Squadron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_XV_squadrons 488 Squadron was raised at Rongatai in New Zealand 1941, from RNZAF personell, but fell under RAF command, the aircraft were also RAF, it's of interest that 488 Squadron's OC was one Wilf Clouston, who though a New Zealander, was a commissioned officer in the RAF, not the RNZAF. Though under RAF Command, it did not mean that members of 488 Squadron didn't do things the "Kiwi" way Regards Alan

Hi Chris, Zinc Chromate Green - I certainly believe that ZCG was used in parts of the Buffalo, such as the luggage compartment located at the bottom of the aircraft aft of the ventral window. Curtiss P 40E's built for the RAF and supplied to the RNZAF had ZCG used in them. Looking at the following anotated photo, I believe that ZCG was used in the engine areas such as the attachment points for the outer engine covers as in this photo. As far as internal colours my reasoning is thus. The aircraft were ordered in 1940 circa the start of the BoB. In thinking about what RAF aircraft were painted in as far as engine bays/bearers etc Aluminum was in use (HawKer Hurricane comes to mind), this next photo seems to bear this out for the areas forward of the forward cockpit bulkhead. Though a little harder to see the inner cowling colour appears also to be aluminum. As far as the underside colour, I believe that the underside colour was used in the wells and dished area as in this photo And a demarcation line above the dished area of the wheel depression as annotated in ths photos When delivered I believe the inner wheel strut was either an airframe silver or the underside colour - going back to my comment above, aircraft circa the BoB had silver/aluminum painted innerss for the undercart doors on a number of fighters. To your question about the Buffalo wreak and the U/C leg, its entirely possible that it happened. One has to remember that in the fierce fighting and attrition on the airframes within each squadron, ground crews had to resort to foraging/scrounging wreaks around Singapore to keep aircraft flying. That the U/C was painted during this time in Dark Earth is very feasible, you would be wanting to hide any silver/aluminum colour from the air, OR it was all that was available. Something that has come into my hands toward the end of last year may help you, these are authentic DuPont colours (which admittedly the RAF Buffalo may not have been painted with) from the above mentioned RNZAF P40E's which includes the oft discussed DuPont71-021 Sky Type S -Grey. The colour is actually a very pale blue with a greenish tinge - Humbrol 23 Duck Egg Blue is a very good/close match. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1VS00MVFaR04ycjg/view?usp=sharing Hope that helps? Regards Alan

Sorry, Missed this one. I would go for the grey green for the interior of the cowling. Areas that would have probable water spillage/ingestion/wet things stored in, inside the Sunderland were painted the grey green colour. This goes for the bow decking the, the internal bilge areas, the Galley drouge containers, even the Water Closet toilet bowl has the base it sits on painted in grey green as in photo below ( Guys, no joke about missing ) The engine cowl interior would be grey green also. The inner engines were run at lower RPM than the outer, until the the aircraft has gained sufficient speed. when the inner engines were throttled up. One main reason for this was that at higher RPM and during "Porpoising", water was found to be ingested into the inner engines. Water Spray etc was also an issue so the inners would/should be Interior Grey Green. Hope that helps? Regards Alan

Ah yes, about the "usual aircraft", I recall reading only some few days ago, comments from another Kiwi BoB Pilot who made mention that with August 1940 the days of individual aircraft were gone. I'm guessing that rank has it's privilages for that, but wouldn't nessecarily guarantee it absolute, as you mention "what ever aircraft was available" could have been the choice on any given day for S/L Lovell-Gregg. I didn't know that about CO's and the letter "A" for their aircraft, - thanks for that piece of information, it would interesting if I can find the last letter and whether it might be "T" or a "G" Thanks/regards Alan

Hi Stew & Tony, Thank you both for replying to my querie. I knew the main code had the letters K & L, and was determined to get it right when I posted, and still got it wrong how embarressing I will try the Kew Website, and see what the 87 Squadron ORB for August 15/40 has for SL Lovell-Gregg's aircraft, If I do find the missing code letter, quite happy to share it with Airgunner or anyone else interested. One thing I have not been able to ascertain is if SL Lovell-Gregg was credited with any kills while with 87 Squadron. One thing for certain is though, he would have had the Squadron Leaders Pennant on his aircraft Thanks again Regards Alan

Hi All, The Battle of Britain Groupbuild is a mere few weeks away, and I have decided on building a Hurricane flown by a New Zealander, a one Squadron Leader Terence G Lovell-Gregg, incumbent OC of 87 Squadron, KIA 15.08.1940. Lovell's aircraft on the day was P3215, Codes KL-??? The 1/24 Airfix Kit has part of the main code, but I need to find the final letter. After much searching/reading I have come up empty handed as to what the final code letter may be. Hence my post to Britmodeller Brain Trust, in the hope that someone may know and /or point me in the right direction if you would please? Many thanks/regards Alan

OK thank you! The 87 Squadron Hurricane it is Regards Alan

Quick question for our hosts re the percentage (<25%?) of a kit done prior to a build? I have been humming and ahring as to what to build, I wouild really like to do a New Zealand Pilot, and there are very famous types such as Al Deere (have the Spitfire kit) etc, but would like to do a model of a not so well known pilot. I have discovered that a one Squadron Leader Terrence Gunion Lovell-Gregg, who was CO of 87 Squadron for a short period of time, KIA 15.08.1940. I have the Airfix Hurricane kit (1/24) which has the main code KL- all I need is the last letter (AC serial P3215) which I could sort once I know it. My question is, the Hurri kit was started for some previous BOB Group and this is all I managed to do Would this fit into the allowed percentage? Thanks Alan