Tiger331

Russ, Great finish......I've been after one of these for a while and wondered what the kit was like.....now I have a more reasonable idea I'll get one for myself. My father had to fly in and out of jungle strips in Malaysia during the 1960s in one of these so I'd like to do an Army Air Corps aircraft with all the dayglo striping etc.......Thanks for the inspiration Mark

Ive been sitting here for an hour wondering how to bring this discussion (from my perspective) to a close, only to discover that the ever erudite Mr Jonathan Mock and Andrew Jones have pretty much beaten me to it. As ever there are those that have understood and there are those that have simply failed to read and understand the original intent. That's life and mirrors what I often experience in my workplace so I guess I should not be surprised. In overall terms I believe the debate has been healthy and I hope that it has proved to be food for thought. I do remain concerned about the level of negativity that appears to be creeping into this great website (still the best) and do hope that we can collectively work towards stemming its flow....believe me, it HAS affected other sites.....a recent straw poll at one of my club meetings served as an indicator and warning of this and we have a wide and varied membership so its not concentrated on one, narrow minded, focus group. Thanks again to all of those that understood and supported the OP and to ALL contributors, I wish you a happy and peaceful Easter weekend. Mark

READ the original post....please....this is not what was said.....at no point was censorship mentioned....

Jonners, Quite agree with your sentiment in this response but the original post from krow113 does raise another disturbing fact (though I know there will be those that argue it has minimal impact) and that is the one surrounding sales figures vs. 'informed comment'. Put quite simply, how do we expect to maintain the 'golden age' of kit releases if we continue to shoot down products before they have even hit the shelves ?. Mark

Hei Nils, Greetings from the West Coast !. Totally agree but surely the most effective way to do this is to approach the manufacturer direct ?. No matter how much we may like to think the manufacturers pore over our "informed comment" on the forum, the fact of life is that they simply don't have time. Better to contact direct although I know this then doesn't expose the individuals' expertise to the wider audience that they may be trying to impress. Mark Jonathan Another well rounded argument to add to this discussion....keep em coming ! Mark

Jonathan, At least someone gets it, and I acknowledge there are others out there too......Thanks for your understanding and support, fellahs. Mark

Dave Don't have a problem with this approach at all........If (but only if) the 'reviewer' is sure that they are looking at the final product, even before launch, then it is perfectly valid to pass judgement as an 'alert' to others.....what we are seeing though is 'informed comment' on test shots, CAD drawings etc well before the product reaches final fruition. These days I will not buy any kit or other product until I have seen informed comment or a full review from those generous and kind enough to take time out of their busy lives and schedules to do so but I would far rather this review be conducted once the product is in their mitts. Those that have issues with products before launch would spend their time better by taking up the issues with the manufacturer direct than pontificating on the forums in order to try and score points. v/r Mark

I give up.......read the post !

dragonlanceHR Could I PLEASE ask you to go back and READ the original Post again........I don't think, at any stage, did I advocate any form of censorship. All I was merely trying to do was identify a growing and disturbing trend in criticising kits etc before they have actually been received in hand. Further, there is a small (and I stress small) band of self appointed specialists who are the core leaders of this disturbing trend, which IS having a negative effect on this website. In no way would I advocate any form of censorship that prevents modellers, whether experienced or otherwise, being denied valuable knowledge about the accuracy or otherwise of a particular product. After all, as many of alluded to, that is one of the values of these websites but only when it can be informed criticism based on having the product actually to hand. I cite Jon K-Ts excellent Vampire build-off as a superb example of the latter and long may this type of objective and useful review continue. v/r Mark

Totally missed the point again.....how many more times ???

At the risk of repeating myself, i'll reiterate I'm not advocating any form of censorship !!! All I was trying to say is let's have a bit of decorum when it comes to commenting on kits or other items before they are released. Many have commented now and I sense that the majority feel the way that I do.....that we are in danger of going the way of ARC and others.....their current 'reputation' has devalued them as a resource for measured and informed debate on the relative merits or otherwise of a particular product. Here's another thought.....And I know its been mentioned before but it is worth repeating.....Why don't those that feel so passionately about an issue with a kit or accessory or decal sheet take it up with the manufacturer direct ?. This is by far the most timely and efficient way in which to get these 'issues' dealt with. With one or two notable exceptions, the vast majority of manufacturers simply do not have the time to scan all of the forums and there is nothing better than direct communication.....or is it, as some have suggested, merely a question of individuals wanting to gain some form one upmanship ? Cheers Mark T with.

Sorry youve totally missed the point

Nils Your last comment pretty much sums up the essence of my original post.....In other words, "one should not judge a book by its cover or until they have read it", an old adage that can be adjusted to apply to the review of a kit, accessory or decal sheet..

gcn In no way am I suggesting a 'sugar coated vanilla topping' state of affairs or censorship....I, like most others I suspect, am quite happy with objective criticism where it is warranted since it will help us all to make an informed decision about the relative merits or otherwise of a particular product. As I said before, why make such 'informed comment' prior to seeing the actual product ?. I see no purpose in this unless one is looking to gain some kind of perverted 'one upmanship', as others have suggested in this thread. I'm all for a healthy (if sometimes unnecessarily heated) debate on a particular subject or product since this is the whole purpose of the forums but let's keep it to those issues we can actually be authoritative about, not something that has yet to reach the light of day and may be corrected before it hits the shelves. Mark

Mike Thanks for your support.....I am in no way suggesting any kind of censorship....I would not want to see that creeping in either but I do think some individuals need to be reined in on occasion for going over the top with their thread/thoughts....otherwise, as others have said, many including the young and influential are going to get 'put off' the hobby which we are all (well most of us anyway) striving to promote. Cheers Mark

I apologise if this topic is in the wrong place (I did do a search first to find another suitable 'spot') or has already been covered - I am not a daily visitor to BM so do not keep up with everything. Anyway, without further ado, I'll get on with my gripe. I'm getting a little alarmed and frankly disappointed with the growing trend in 'kit bashing' (and here I'm not talking about converting kits) that is taking place on our great site. From my own observations this 'disease' started on ARC and Hyperscale, which is why I now seldom visit the former, largely emanated from Stateside and was mainly focused on products coming from Asia. I have always taken pride in the fact that our website (I'm a Brit living and working in Norway before anyone decides to take a swipe) is different and has a uniquely British flavour to it, even if the spellcheck keeps correcting my 'English' !. In recent weeks/months I have witnessed 'behaviour' that would suggest otherwise and that we are risk of slipping into the same mould as the others. The Trumpeter 1:48 DH Vampire story, Kittyhawk 1:48 Mirage F.1B accuracy, Trumpeter 1:48 HU-16 Albatross box art (!) issue and most recently this ridiculous thread on the Eduard 1:48 Spitfire IX decal sheets all point towards an emerging trend which I, for one, do not like. Don't get me wrong....once a kit is released I would be the first to applaud those that take the time and trouble to point out faults so I, as someone who likes to spend wisely, can make an informed decision on whether to expend my hard earned cash on the kit, accessory or whatnot. To start tearing kits to pieces before they have even hit the streets is frankly ridiculous and I certainly don't buy into this 'We're only trying to help the manufacturer with their QA process' argument either. We modellers have never had it so good with the current pace of releases and this in a period of world recession too. I cannot, in over 40 years of being a modeller think of a better time, particularly for those that favour the bigger scales of 1:48 and 1:32. Sure, some manufacturers are faring better than others in the accuracy and presentation stakes but they are all willing to put considerable sums of money into the hobby and we could at least reciprocate by being a little bit more civil and not passing judgement until after the event. So, I would like to respectfully ask that the moderators look very carefully at who the main perpetrators of this new 'trend' of kit bashing are (I already have my own list of 'usual suspects') and provide them with a gentle reminder as to the proper 'code of conduct' for kit 'reviewing'...Otherwise we face the danger of going the way of the other sites out there and modellers will opt out. Mark

Sorry to disappoint chaps but my references (obtained IIRC during a visit to the MiG maintenance facility in Belgrade, Serbia) clearly show MiG 23Ms in a natural metal scheme. The photos would seem to indicate at least one operational unit used these aircraft...there are no dates associated with the photos however. Like you, I've looked extensively over the internet (not always reliable anyway.....there's a load of rubbish over there too) and my other references but I think a MiG factory is probably fairly 'on the nail' when it comes to providing information on their own product !. Thanks anyway.....I'll keep looking Mark

Not according to the Russian book (with English captions) I have on the MiG 23....They are definitely not Grey..it's just the colour photos are not that great when it comes to picking up the markings....which is what I am really after... Cheers

Hi there, Looking for some help with references. I want to build the new Trumpeter MiG 23 Flogger but would prefer to finish it in natural metal (or silver whatever) rather than the overall Light Grey scheme in the kit. The trouble is, I cannot find much in the way of reference as to whether those that entered Service with the Soviet Air Force did so in natural metal (or painted aluminium or some other silver colour) or whether they sported the light grey scheme from the get go.....Any advice (preferably with references) gratefully received. Mark

Watch this space !...

Not necessarily.......The very early issues were slightly different. They had shallow auxiliary intakes, not so well detailed exhaust nozzles and other less sophisticated details. Shortly after the first releases (late 1980s) Fujimi did a limited re-tool which improved certain features.....problem was, they did not (initially) change the box art so you would need to check the box contents very carefully. Some years later they started doing limited re-issues with revised box art (such as the kit shown earlier in the thread) and the RAF 'Black Mike' version of the FG.1....these, along with the very latest re-issues, all have the better features. As my co-respondent says, go for aftermarket decals.....Model Alliance did a nice set for FAA FG.1s but again, be careful.....they switched printers for the re-print (which vastly improved the quality of the decals.....the first batch were not so good)... Hope this helps Tiger331

Nice job.....brought back memories of my childhood in Singapore.....frequently viewed RSAF BAC 167 Strikemasters and Hunter FGA.74s at both Tengah and Changi in the mid-1970s. I remember going to one of their first Open Days/Air Shows in the mid-1970s at Changi and seeing some formation aerobatics from four Strikemasters......long before the Black Knights formed. I have a couple of these kits in the 'stash' and hope to do RSAF and RNZAF examples to relive those happy days in the Far East. Thanks for sharing your completed model for inspiration Tiger331

I must agree with my co-respondents.......it is going to be quite difficult to reproduce this effect and these Hunters were very scruffy during their last few years of Service. I was fortunate enough to get a trip in WV318, one of the jets in the photo, that was then on the strength of 208 Sqn (although I flew with 12 Sqn) and it was very patchy. You definitely need to end up with the heavily weathered (used) parts of the jet in semi-gloss....the areas around the cockpit entry points, over the wings and upper fuselage were particularly susceptible given the amount of human 'activity' (clambering around the airframe pre and post-flight) and the various oils/lubricants that flowed out with a disconcerting fluidity !. Incidentally, I re-visited Lossiemouth for the Buccaneer Finale a year later and WV318 was resplendent in an overall semi-gloss finish....I understand the ground crew gave her one last polish for the day before she retired to Delta Jets down at Kemble. So, if your weathering attempts fail, you can always take an easier option but then, thats not what modelling is about, is it ?!. Good luck.... Tiger331

John RE your last point.....maybe that's why the gentlemen in the penultimate photo has one of those "phew, we got away with that" looks as he holds his head in his hands whilst walking away...! Tiger331

Horrido109 Great build.....I'm particularly grateful for confirmation regarding the suitability of the Aires/Pavla detail sets for this particular kit. I had bought these sets for the aforementioned Heller kit and was considering ditching them since I'm now going to embark on building the lesser of the two evils so to speak, since I had already picked up on the fit issues with the Kinetic family of M2000s......still a slightly better deal than the now-dated Heller/Eduard versions. Thanks again for the info and congrats on the build Tiger331