Steve D

Just wondering Pascal, where have you got all your dimension information from? Your drawings are highly detailed and would require a lot of actual drawings to prepare. Do you have full construction drawings of the vessel or are you filling in details by eye?

Superb stuff Pascal, love those renders you must use a very powerful PC

Another master class is 3d drawing Pascal, I'll follow along watch and learn. Interesting that there is no bulbous bow.... Steve

I'll take that, your drawing work is amazing

Sorry, I've been preoccupied with stripping out the new house and neglected the forum. Thanks for the nice comments, I'll post a few more pictures tomorrow. As a teaser, I drew the 4.7inch QF gun while we were packing and sent it off to Shapeways to print, came back a few days ago, but I've not had time to do anything with it... My plan was to have it printed in brass, but the cost was over £200.... Here is the artwork, it comes in 4 main pieces (3 print models as the carriage and tub are part of the same print job). I've also drawn the gun shield open, it hinges about the pivot behind the curve, you can see the locking handle in the background This is it assembled. That shield is thick armour plating, quite weird for an open mount It actually came out very well, all the details you can see printed perfectly Really, just a bit of fun to escape packing, I'm getting better with that program, though not in the same class as @Iceman 29. The result deserves fitting on something, must get a workshop back.... Steve

Good luck with the strip down, I believe they have rust issues on the chassis The car I built as a Hawk ACE, MGB running gear with a US spec (i.e. carburetted ) TR6 engine and a removable hardtop. Here's a few pictures, the car is long gone, sold to provide funds for me to build the plane.... Thanks for the interest Cheers Steve

It will be slow and somewhat intermittent, but I will continue the thread once our house move needs give me more time Thanks Steve

Also great shot of a Dan buoy in that picture.. Yes, the round objects are valve actuating wheels on the manifold that controls the smoke chemical mix. The vertical type has a pressure gauge above the side pressure cylinders and three valves on the top leading to the pipe so it is safe to assume theses three are valves. On this model the pressure cylinder (singular) is laid horizontal so the pressure gauge may be laying horizontally behind the near end between the cylinder and the smoke vessel Steve

Good compromise

Nice new project, love wooden boats Cheers Steve

Jon It could be, though I'm guessing that would look more red than brown. I don't know what colour they came with from the factory though in the past I'd assumed black. Some pictures I've seen they are painted to match the camouflage flowing up from the hull, as ever, speculation is easy and the truth variable. Re the washes, there are better people on this forum than me on the subject. In the past, I've applied a clear coat to even things up before weathering but I don't know if that is best practice. Looking at that head -on shot Arjan posted, its interesting to see the bow waterline olive green algae build up. That's an effect I applied to the Schnellboot, on top of oily deposit from mooring in the pens Also, watch applying rust streaks to timber hulls.... Steve

@Arjan always has the best pictures, great colour shot, though in the cleat photo the lifebuoy looks pretty white to me. However, I stand corrected re the introduction of Orange, thanks for that. Note also the rust coloured depth charge, interesting maybe its a Canadian thing....

Lifebuoys were I believe mostly dirty white linen covered. Some pictures show them quartered in orange/red (I believe), but most of the pictures of MTB's I have they are all one colour. The dark orange is a post-war thing I think, though I'm happy to be corrected Cheers Steve

No criticism intended Jon, just sharing thoughts. Colour schemes are all made up, no matter how much we kid ourselves we have exactly the right shade of blue/grey..... Real boats were dirty, washed out, salt covered, scarred, touched up, rusty, with weed on the waterline and the decks looked totally different when wet than when dry, And that's before we get into the debate about scale impacting colour and level of sheen.... Personally, I've never been able to bring myself to paint the ships bell, they look too nice in brass Cheers Steve

For the future, my understanding is that shiny stuff was reserved for peacetime, in wartime they painted things, no time to polish. Also, shiny stuff on deck reflects light and gives away your location at night, bad karma....

Arjan, just paint one yourself. Looking at your figures, your painting skills are certainly up to the challenge. Get a linen handkerchief, mount it on a board with masking tape over a print of the ensign, paint and use fabric paint (https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Tulip-Multi-Slick-Set-Pack/dp/B01HOS8106). This set will last a lifetime of flags. Takes 20 minutes max per side, second side just trace the first, paint the outline in clear varnish before cutting to prevent fraying and that you can then drape it once soaked in weak PVA to deliver the perfect ensign with the folds disguising any flaws in the painting I get it that this might be a tad fiddly at 1/72nd but larger scales are fine Steve

I believe RN WW2 white was a sort of very pale cream, certainly not the brilliant white we see today or very pale grey. I've mixed my own with white plus a few drops of cream

Tidy work there Kev

They are really not hard, not to worry. I plan to design is double diagonal planked in 1/64th ply, we'll see how that goes means no plank tapering Cheers Steve

Hi Jon, Interesting topic, I'll be following along. In my packing for the move, I turned up the modellers draft from a 1991 model shipwright of the 70ft Vosper MTB. While I'm unable to model due to a lack of workshop, I have an idea to draw this and the 3d components, etchings etc for a 1:48th scale model using laser cut frames and superstructure. This could then be a form of quick build semi-kit if any others are interested, I'll build it once I have the room ready and post the thread here... Good luck with the build Cheers Steve

Thanks Kev, I'm was hoping to demystify this topic. I've not seen a commercial model hull get this right, and some are plain awful. And don't get me started on models that have no openings for condensing water, what do they think happens to the fresh water needed to make steamf?? People spend ages on tiny details on a deck while the hull has no way of sucking in and spitting out the condensing seawater, great big holes are needed or the boat goes nowhere.... In my book, that's up there with sticking out flags.....

A short discussion on plating of steel hulls. Firstly, most hulls of this period through to the advent of welding in WW2 were surface (ie raised head) riveted. In particular, once ships used turbine propulsion, the extra power meant that the parasite drag associated with the exposed rivet heads did not adversely impact performance to the extent to warrant the extra expense of flush riveting. Hence if you look at close-up pictures of WW1 destroyers, you will see rivets everywhere, but if you look at 19th century torpedo boats, where speed was everything, you will see they are smooth. Merchant ships were mostly lap riveted with goggled edges, but warships were always butt riveted fore and aft and laid in inner and outer runs vertically (for interest, the outer plate lines require packing pieces to be able to be riveted to the frames). Interestingly, the Denny SGB's (as I showed in my build thread) were lap riveted, I think this is because they were constructed at shipyards more used to merchant ships as the naval yards were all full building destroyers. As ever with rules, there are exceptions. The Flower class corvettes are another class that have lapped plates as they are really more armed whalers than warships as such. By the way, if you are modelling exposed rivets on hulls, remember that all plates were rivetted to each frame they cross and butt joints have at least double rivet lines on each side of the butt, so a minimum of 4 lines per joint. I've seen commercial model hulls where the rivets have been marked only run round the edge of the plate, a ship built that way would fall apart more or less immediately it was launched.... The butt joints are a weakness so the layout of the plates should be done so that each frame spacing only has up to two butt joints. Plates were around 4 ft wide on this size of vessel, probably a lot larger on capital ships. This is to ease handling. Generally the plates were around 8-10 ft long. These are only guidelines, each situation has to be considered based on the plate position. Also, double curvature is avoided as much as possible. It is fascinating (well to me at least) how mostly flat or single curvature plates can form the complex curves needed for a hull. What I had to go on to start this process was a cross section amidships which showed the plate runs with widths and the sequence of inner and outer. If you don't have that, the keel plate is always an inner (logical it comes first...) and the sheerline plate is an outer. So, using these rules, you can set up the layout. Also, not all lines of plating run the full length of the vessel. In particular the lines that cover the bilge section run out to trapezoidal pieces for and aft. So, step one is to lay out the inner plate lines onto the hull using tape as shown on the photograph below. You will see that I'd already marked the location of the frames (actually the lines show every other frame, there are too many frames to show each one), knowing the frame centres is also important. Butt joints cannot occur on frame lines, no way to build that. The butt joints all sit between frames so to work out the shape of each plate, you need to know where the frames sit. Also, the taper to the trapezoidal closing plates doesn't end in a point, it cuts off to a butt joint no less than 2 ft long. Designing a plating layout is a key shipyard skill I don't have, but using this logic, the model can at least have the sense of the real thing in the absence of a shell expansion drawing I was lucky this hull only needs a single inset line so getting the inner lines right wasn't too complex. Here is the run out at the stern, just cut off are the special stern plates Once the inner lines are marked, the butt joints need to be worked out following the rules and reasonable length constraints. This takes some time and trial and error to get a layout that makes sense and follows all the rules Here is the bow with the butt joints marked out in green marker. Remember, the frame lines here are showing every other frame, so the joints are all set at the quarter point of the space between the lines. Also shown in this picture is the brass insert at the break in the forecastle, set in flush and edge filled plus a close up of the bow gun cut out and doors and below is a section amidships, note the way the butt joints march along across the plating lines. If you see a model with plates looking like bricks in a wall, that is not correct, the joints always stagger. That picture in the album behind came from the brass foundry, its not come to light in the move yet, will keep looking because that has details not available on line.... The quality of close up will have shown me where the butt lines were set at the bow, and of course confirmed that she was flush riveted Proceeding from this layout, the aluminium sheeting is attached with impact adhesive, 0.1 mm thick for the inner plates and 0.2 mm for the outer plate lines. Here is a shot taken as I worked my way from the bow to the stern. With no rivets to mark and butt joints, this is really quite a fast process, the sheets are cut with a knife and the finish is flattened with wire wool which also cleans away and stray adhesive. I use an ordinary wallpaper edging roller to get the sheets firmly in place And here is the hull completely plated looking very shiny. It may seem like I fuss over this sort of detail too much, but at this scale, the joints can be seen very clearly and modelling them correctly(ish) adds lightness to the finished model I hope that long text may help others work this sort of detail out for themselves. Many commercial models I've seen really let themselves down in this area imho Cheers Steve

As I've said, the hull is planked in 3mm thick Obeche working from the bow backwards, first down to the sheerline plank and then onwards In this shot below, it is easier to see the cut-outs for the starboard 3 pdr which sits behind side hinged hatches and the shelter deck arrangement. The deck sides have also been added to stiffen the hull before planking the bottom. Planking is done both sides at once to help prevent twisting, something that is easy to introduce but hard to see until its too late. Planks just stuck with to the frames and each other with PVA wood glue and pinned to the frames, a pin pusher is the key tool for this job, makes it all pretty fast Working back to the stern, good shot of the planking progressing. You can see the use of the narrow (6mm wide) planks on the curve of the bilge that run out before the bow. Otherwise this is a simple hull to plank. You can see some wires in the shot below. I had a plan to illuminate some of the interior space, in particular the wardroom which would have been panelled in mahogany. Ah, the energy of youth, daft idea really , there was no way anyone could have seen the interior and working our a power source with the case etc, what a nightmare.... That bit is now firmly cut from the project This just progresses until complete, the stern cheek pieces are carved from Jelutong blocks and then the whole hull was sanded and covered with a two part epoxy varnish to add strength and provide a sound foundation layer for the aluminium plating. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the completed planking stage, the next post will cover working out of the plating layout without the benefit of a shell expansion drawing. If anyone is wondering where this is, we used to live in a barn that had a 12 ft square granary on the land, that was my second workshop, hence the oak beams in the background Cheers Steve

Zhiyuen is a protected light cruiser, ~50 ft longer but displacing almost 3 times Jason @ 2,300 tones. Protected cruises had an armoured deck to provide some degree of protection against plunging fire. I believe armoured cruisers had a side armoured belt to resist more horizontal direct fire. The debate seems to have raged through the 1880's driven by expectations (or dogma) of engagement distance and fire control/accuracy. Checking Conway, Britain did not have anything quite like Zhiyen, mounting 8 inch guns on such a relatively small vessel. The closest I can see is the Marathon class of 2nd class cruisers (1887/8) which mounted 6 inch BL's, though more of them. (see HMS Magicienne below) Zhiyen looks a bit like a coastal protection vessel to me, heavy guns but probably not designed for ocean cruises the way RN vessels were... It's interesting to me that RN warships all had to have foreign service in mind as a key design consideration because of the needs of the empire. German dreadnoughts for instance were really only designed for short raids and so had many more water-tight doors, crews slept ashore. Its interesting the way these design considerations impact thinking, but I've wandered way off topic.... However, you are right, the TGB's were designed to look a bit like contemporary light cruisers from a distance but were unarmoured so pretty venerable to cruiser fire. A 6 or 8 inch shell would probably go right through... But there are lots of similarities in appearance and colour scheme, good spot.. Cheers Steve

Davits swivel one at a time, not together, that way you pass the boat between them. So, looked at from the top, both can swivel counter clockwise say 30 degrees, then the right continues to swivel counter clockwise until the left one has to follow turning clockwise and the boat passes diagonally through the gap. Cheers Steve