Steve D

Hi Jamie, I'd not meant to call you out so harshly, your expertise in ship colours is legend, apologies if it came over that way. 20 years ago I spent 4 years modelling my grandfather's ship (including reading the ships logs) and did just a pile of research on WW1 destroyers. She was HMS Medea and I've modelled her in black as she was before Jutland hence for once my confidence in what is a notorious subject for traps... I've not been able to find in my reference books any image of Westminster, but here are two further sister ships in 1920 and 1918 respectively, interesting range of funnel bands colours ... This image is from Cocker's Destroyers of the Royal Navy, 1893 - 1981. Considering the small vessels called were called destroyers in 1914, the W and modified W class were serious vessels that served through to the end of WW2. Compare to the horrible US 4 stackers we got on lend lease.... Cheers Steve

Hi, Thanks @Bandsaw Steve for mentioning me, not sure what help I can be on the sheet metal work but please pm me and I'll be delighted to assist. My Grandfather served on an M class destroyer on WW1, the predecessor of the V&W classes As Steve H says, Westminster was a later V&W class destroyer, according to Edger J March's British Destroyers, she was built by J S White and launched in February 1918. March has the following GA of the V class, W's were very similar but had triple tube mounts not double as shown below It looks like your Granddad had it pretty well modelled, given the scale considerations, its a treasure March also has the following two images, the first being Warwick, a sister ship For once, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies is wrong. Destroyers were painted black overall pre-war and up to Jutland but part of the lessons learned from that battle was that black stands out very well at night (counter intuitive) and also made confusion with German destroyers (also black) too easy. They were all repainted grey during the summer of 1916 so she would have been grey overall with white pennant numbers like Warwick in the picture above. The M class builder's model in the IWM reserve collection which I've viewed is also grey with red oxide below the water-line, with a black boot topping. The white funnel strip on Whirlwind is, I believe, a flotilla leader marking, her white numbers have been painted out by the censor. The brown on the deck is I believe indicating coir matting, which was lashed in place as an anti-slip treatment, they had white canvas bound edges Re you handrails, there are various braided wire ropes I use but to be more in keeping with the spirit of such an early model, I would use very fine copper wire (0,3 mm is easy to source), 2 or 3 strands wound together. This will lay well between the stanchions Happy to help in any way, just ask. Lovely model, I'm very jealous Cheers Steve

While I still think these small scales are for borrowers, I love watching other people take on the challenge. Crisp work as ever Rob, a pleasure to watch it come along Cheers Steve

Few days radio silence, devoted to the etching drawing. Each time I do one of these, I forget how much work it is. Not only deciding the exact dimensions of each item, not always correct of even included in the GA drawings, but also how to produce brass pieces that can be both etched and also assembled to create some semblance of the object in question. In my hands thIs is certainly an iterative process with a £100 cost if I get it wrong, so not to be rushed. For some items, drawing isn't sufficient, I also need to trial fit. Here is the wheelhouse brass cladding tested out in paper, 4th iteration. the middle side panels slope then switch to vertical where that horizontal line is, interesting stuff, supporting a curved windbreak for the early boats For those that haven't read my other build threads, I etch in 18 thou brass (0.45 mm). For 1:48th scale, this thickness seems to work and allows good relief for rivet detail etc. It's also a thickness I'm used to and it (mostly) silver solders without melting. The minimum line thickness you can etch is the same at the thickness of the brass, so ~.85 inch at scale. This limits really super fine detail, but overall I think it creates the right image. The rivets have 0.7 inch (full scale) heads, smaller and they disappear when etched Here is the finished artwork with the red joining lines in a support frame with the scale included. To understand the drawing, you need to remember that black means leave alone, white etch through, red half etch from the front, cyan, half etch from the rear. 90 degree fold lines need to be the same width as the brass thickness. Red joining lines are 0.02 inch wide One thing I'm trying here that is new is the slots you can see in the top margin of the sheet. My idea is to use this margin piece to create a square frame to weave the Carley float base net, it may work.... About 200 pieces in total comprising: The torpedo tube frames and sloping supports. These frames are only 6 inches high, I've very nervous about folding such narrow pieces, will need a frame made to control it Wheelhouse armour sides The windbreak Deck access opening frames for engine removal etc Canvas deck edge frames Scuttles and deck lights Circular hatches 924 inch and 20 inch, the upstand will be brass tube section Torpedo loading saddle frames Cavitation plates Lower bridge door, hinges and frame And a few tiny bits such as the mast frame and base, gun sight, nav light boxes etc A lot of this stuff can of course be scratch-build, but as the cost is fixed per sheet, I may as well fill the A5 sheet, getting more lazy in my old age This will get sent off on Monday, time for me to consider it tomorrow and hopefully remember what I've inevitably missed off Cheers Steve

Box arrived from California this afternoon Three tiny cast bronze propellers from my artwork, remember these are 1/2 inch diameter And here they are mounted temporarily on the hull, looking the business imho Happy with that 👍 Cheers Steve

Hi Rob, Nice to be called an adult, I'll have to tell my wife... Wow, that's such a hard question. I don't use Fusion, I use 123D, still they are all probably much of a muchness. I've watched the stuff that @Iceman 29 produces and it simply blows me away, I feel I'm just about up to cleaning his shoes. He may be a better person to ask First 3D drawing is quite different to 2D drawing of which I've spent a lifetime on. I trained as a Structural Engineer so was brought up preparing, checking and signing off drawings (old school, pre-computers, rooms full of drawing boards, happy days...). This means I've very happy interpreting and rescaling drawings but my experience with 3D shapes if far more limited and to be honest after 6 years, I'm still learning and I hope getting better. The thing to realise is that its not just about drawing something correctly, you also need to draw something that can be printed and that takes more thought regarding thicknesses, unsupported shapes, details that won't print, holes that will disappear when printed etc etc. I've read all the guidelines, but the more complex the shape becomes, the more challenging this aspect is. I'm also someone who is generally dissatisfied with everything I produce, which doesn't help... Lastly, hulls are tough as using 123D, you would use a loft function to join the transverse frames, but that doesn't work at the bow as you can't loft to a curving line. I've tried ships boat's hulls and just given up in disgust, it probably needs mesh work to model the hull entry (connected triangles) but I've not bothered to learn 3D mesh design, jelutong blocks and sandpaper solve this problem in my world... So, I would say that to get a 1/350th scale hull modelled accurately in a form that can be printed and that you will be happy with, is a serious investment in time and frustration. From a standing start, I would think in terms of months not hours. Just getting these MTB frames modelled in 2D from a scan so they could be laser cut, with all sheer and transverse lines in a way I was happy with probably took me around 80 hours (it didn't help that the scan wasn't that great to start with...), and I'm very fast on 2D software. That said, I really quite like 3D drawing, and the more you do, the quicker you get like everything I'll let Iceman add his comments, his hull work is a masterclass in 3D design Hope that helps Cheers Steve

Thanks Rob, any feedback is always much appreciated. The wheelhouse still has some way to go as the exterior will be clad with etched brass sheets which will also make up the wind deflector, it works out to be ~10mm higher than it is now. The actual wheelhouses where externally plated, look closely at the pictures and you can see how thick the walls are at the window openings with no exterior frames, hopefully I will be able to recreate this look. Later this week i hope to get on to that stage of the etch sheet drawing which is admittedly quite a complex task. I'll post here to show what I mean. Meanwhile I've had the printer going once again, should have some of those items to show later Cheers Steve

More 3D drawing, this time for the torpedo tubes. For the SGB, I made the tube fittings from brass which I recognise is tough for people without a lathe, so this time I'm going to print the fittings but still use brass for the tube itself and the reinforcing rings (next size up, short lengths, soldered or glued in place) So, the fittings are the assembly flanges, the end cap, the breech mechanism and latch tripper, still thinking about the charging valve assembly which is very tiny, may not print worth having. These pieces will have a few etched components added from the etch sheet, hence the drawing now as I have to develop all the areas that need etched attachments before I can finalise the etching artwork. I ALWAYS miss stuff off the etching sheet, normally realising this the second it arrives... Very frustrating as components are basically free to add before, very expensive after... I'm using John Lambert's drawing from Allied Coastal Forces Vol 2 which is the best drawing I have, though without a 3D render, some details are not clear. It is the 21 inch LC Mk1 tube Here is where the drawing has progressed to, with the brass tube sections added in semi-transparent to show how it will come together, the darker grey items are printed. This does allow me to show the bolts on the flange joints which I couldn't do with turned connectors. Closed up of the breech assembly Ha, I've just noticed the key on the latch tripper is at the wrong end, got to keep checking this stuff. It's not symmetrical as it sits slightly offset. The dome handles will be 0.5mm brass wire Cheers Steve

Thanks Beefy, the pictures flatter the errors... Currently having a lot of fun drawing the etching for the torpedo tube frames, I have pictures of at least 5 different types of frame, and while the MTB34 pictures don't make it clear, I'm sure 7 squarish holes to the bow end (not round as fitted later) is right with narrow slots beneath the tube support brackets. The drawings I have disagree on this detail. I suspect a lot of these drawings simply copy each other (even the Vosper drawing is not necessarily "as fitted" and may have made assumptions regarding the torpedo fitting, who knows?) All part of the joy of scratch-building from your own drawings.... Steve

Thanks Stuart. I did in fact consider etching the flats with raised nuts but in the end I wanted to make progress on getting these in place and I've still some way to go on the etching artwork. You are right to point it out (I know in jest), the lack of surface detail on those supports does worry me but it will remain one of the many compromises I'll have to live with Steve

I've started the etching drawing, but to break things up (too much screen time, boring...), I made the rudder assemblies in brass. First to make the mounts, I silver soldered a length of brass tubing to a strip of 1/4inch brass, below before soldering This is then easily sawn into three different lengths, bottom, top and manual support, seen here below cleaned up, rudder shaft in the foregro9und I then made the rudders out of .8mm brass sheet, cut out roughly and then soldered together with paste for final filing so they end up identical. The top then has a small notch filed in for the 1.6 mm shaft and then heated to separate them, seen below the first after silver soldering but not yet cleaned up And here both finished and cleaned up, the shafts are overlength of course, cut down later And below the supports epoxied to the hull in a rather odd support arrangement to make sure the stern is horizontal while the epoxy sets The smaller upper support on the starboard side is for the manual rudder, the rudder shafts finish just above the middle support. There is a cap piece that would have held the actuation lever penetrating the hull to add much later in final assembly. This will support the rudders so that they can move, they are installed here for alignment only Lastly, the beginning of the etching work, these are the anti-slip canvas edging, printed out and laid on the hull to check fit. These small strips of brass will edge linen pieces to simulate the canvas decking in those areas I have plenty of drawing work for the etch sheet, will include details as they are developed. Meanwhile, after studying the picture posted above closely, I improved the old 3D drawing or the Depth Charge in its rack that I did for the Fairmile B, added more detail, rivets etc, this one is better Progress on many fronts as ever Cheers Steve

Thanks, it's what I do... Keep reading and we will fill both sides of the envelope as well as the stamp

An update containing lots of bits. Been mixing making stuff with drawing stuff, nothing very conclusive. Here is the forward hull fin that improved directional control. Brass and soldered to some of the double T section I used on Grey Fox for the bilge keels. Epoxied to the hull later Then, I decided to make the rear hatch from copper, can't etch everything... The hatch has a sliding curved cover which make this an interesting item to construct. As before, these are made around wooden bucks which are removed later. For copper I use soft solder mostly, it has a tendency to melt with silver solder heat Set-up below ready to solder And finished and cleaned up, wood still in place. The front side needs filing back later, see completed shots below Next, the actual hatch and hatch cover which is inside this housing And finally with the outer sliding cover made and attached This is all out of 0.3mm copper sheet Lastly on the build side, I installed the depth charge and mine hard rails. These are clear in the photo above as quite high and with a small step to the deck edge, a little more sanding needed but a start has been made I'm not sure how interested anyone is my 3d drawings, but here is the finished artwork for the 10 cowl vents, ready to print And my first pass through the smoke machine, dimensions fro an elevation on one of John Lambert's drawings and detail from a picture I found on line from a US navy instruction manual. I'll add some brass wire and tubing to this once its printed So, nothing major, just working my way round stuff I can do while I think through the etching artwork which I plan to start this coming week Cheers Steve

If I can help, just shout

With these MTB's the rudders are behind the transom so the propellers are right up against it. The horizontal plates above the rudders create a downward force at speed to keep the bow in the water. This design requires the props to be right at the stern and the rudders to be external. interesting design Steve

Continuing the propeller theme, today I pulled the outer prop shaft outer mounts together These start as three 2.8 mm diameter tubes (ID 1.6 mm) 8 mm long and tapered @ 15 deg, forward, here sitting on the porp shafts (1.6 mm brass). Note, the internal shaft tubes have been cut back to length, they were oversize before. You will see a theme developing in my modelling, I always cut over size (length etc) and then cut back, file back, sand back etc. I've long since stopped trying to make stuff the right size before assembly, just too difficult... From the drawing I then filed a section of 0.8 mm thick brass strip to shape, well over length and then cyno'd it to two similar strips and filed the lot to an identical shape. None of this is really critical or I wouldn't be able to do it... These strips are then silver soldered to the tubes set up as shown below, remember the solder flows to the heat so heat the thickest piece away from it and suck it in . The brass rod is a packer to try to get the joint on the centreline of the tube. At the end I got these three, not identical, but pretty close, who will see? These have been cleaned up with a wire brush, solver solder loves clean metal so important to clean between stages. I've also added a little streamlining to the edges Then these were offered against the tiny drawing and sawn to length (or slightly over). Then they are fed down the prop shafts to see there they end up. This enables you to file the last stage away in very very small amounts, remembering that they will be mounted to 0.5mm strip so they need to sit back from their final position before soldering This is the set-up to solder them to the plate that is glued to the hull. You will see I've not bothered to cut the 0.5mm strip, easy to hold it steady away from the joint and cut it later. These strips are 1/4 inch wide btw I use a vermiculite block that is soft enough to allow drawing pins to be pushed in to hold things in place, these break up after time but last a year of so, about £15 each, anyone wants the links, let me know So, after soldering, they are cut roughly back with snips and then filed to final shape. For this sort of filing, I use a mircomaster drill and sanding disk, so that it is easy to take off tiny amounts They are attached with epoxy, I don't trust cyno for these, too brittle. The epoxy overspill will be cleaned up once set Another job ticked off, ready for the propellers 👍 Cheers Steve

Broke away from the build today to draw the prop's and send them off to Shapeways for casting in bronze. These propellers are quite small, only 26 inches in diameter and 10 inches long (13.7 mm and just over 5 mm scale. The drawings I have are all too vague to be of any use bar the overall size but there is one image of the props of a similar MTB and I've used this as inspiration. Now, a word of caution, I am not clever enough to draw an actual marine propeller, that's way above my paygrade. But as I showed wit the S-boat and the SGB, I can get something close to work without a huge effort. First, I drew the hub, so far so simple. Then I sketched a blade shape that fills 100 degrees of the circle, which seemed about right. I then extruded that to 0.6 mm thick and sliced it into 8 slices. Then I drew an ellipse in each slice. Then, starting at the root slice which was rotated 70 degrees, I rotated each ellipse, washing out 10 degrees of rotation each time leaving my final slide (half a step) at 5 degrees. Then the ellipses where "lofted" to create a 3D blade and that was replicated 3 times round an axis and combined with the hub. Now, this is not how you draw a propeller, but the result certainly looks like a propeller and as this is a static model, I don't have to worry about it working, just looking about right. The fact that Shapeways will cast this in bronze actually means more to visualisation realism in my opinion than the exact shape. The picture below shows all the stages in the process (software is 123design, which is free and I'm used to it). You will see that the outer edge has a flat, that's the result of lofting the ellipses but I can file that easily to a smooth curve, it is tiny.. Obviously, there are right and left hand versions, just rotated the other way. The hub (or boss) is drilled 1.6 mm for the prop shaft, I'll turn the prop-shaft outer support on the lathe Anyway, $12.50 each plus shipping etc, should be with me before Christmas. With expedited delivery charge, they are £24 each, would be a lot cheaper in bulk. The Shapeways software does an auto-check when you load a file to ensure it can be printed, I hope the manual check on Monday works so that they can be manufactured Cheers Steve

First, the planks are much wider than scale, I believe they were 6 inch planks, so ~3 mm, these are 5 mm wide for expediency But, my hope is that I'll still be left with the "impression" of diagonal planking, so not totally smooth, but also not massively in your face. The challenge with the sanding is not to remove all the joints (which is anyway hard) but some of that detail should remain apparent, in particular under certain lighting This is all I'm trying to achieve, an impression of the real vessel and a model that shows more detail as you look closer.. To a point, it should get better the closer you are Sometimes it works....

Back to the hull and in particular the openings. The forward scuttles where marked from a print of the drawing and then opened up gradually using successive drill sizes finally completed with a fine bur. These will be covered with etched frames later. The rear openings are the engine cooling water outlets and that stick out slighty from the face of the hull and are in turn protected with a prominent timber rubbing strip that curves down below the outlet. This is clear right at the bottom of this IWM image, which is also the best picture I have of the rear hatch, more of that later. Anyway, these rubbing pieces curve into the hull and prevent snagging. One key point is that there are three engines and so three engine outlets, two on the port side and one on the starboard. However, on the starboard side there is a smaller un-faired outlet for the standby generator engine. The drawings I have (which seem to have been coped from each other) only show the starboard side, so be careful, the sides are not identical These fairings are an interesting challenge as they are quite chunky. In the end I turned down a piece of 10 mm dowel from jelutong and drilled it out with a 6 mm hole giving me a short length of wood tube, seen here cut free This was then cut longitudinally and the side wings glued in place ready for final sanding. The outlets are 4 mm brass tuning, pieces shown in this out of focus picture below The fairings are then glued to the hull and final shaping done in-situ, port side below A little more final finish sanding still to go, but you can see the idea, this all worked really well Starboard side has the higher un-faired standby generator engine outlet (3 mm brass tube) Last on tnhis update is the raised forward engine room roof, not totally cream on the drawings, I think this had some scuttles in the sides, more staring at pictures needed to decide, certainly on picture of MTB74 shows small scuttles but this was a variation of the early 70ft boats so not conclusive. So, basically, I'm working my way back with the wood substructure elements, more later Cheers Steve

Deck or wheelhouses always present an interesting challenge due to the number of strange shaped facets they have. The first challenge is actually working out what shape they are. The early war 70ft Vospers (30-34 etc) had a cranked diagonal rear and a curved wind deflector both of which are quite clear in this image In construction, they were made of plywood and then had some armour plate bolted to them. The wheelhouse roof was canvas covered. Well we can copy all that with ease. I'm using 0.5 mm ply for the main structure and intend to reproduce the armour plating with etched brass which will also incorporate the window frame detail. I'll use a linen handkerchief to cover the roof, I love 1:48th scale... I tend to make my deck houses removable as it makes final assembly easier, but the initial build slightly more challenging. That's why I incorporated the well in the deck, to receive the lower wheelhouse Here is my GA and expansion drawing of the wheelhouse The rear wings (to the left of this drawing) will be etched brass as they were metal on the full size vessels. The side windows were welded up in service and often covered with splinter matting for extra protection so I won't be cutting these out in the ply (cheating a little). The front windows do not need to be so accurate as the final form comes from the brass etching. A point on my build sequence, I need to make the pieces that need brass etching added before I do the etching drawings and the wind deflector is a key element in this, so making the wheelhouse early allows me to balance build with drawing work. The main structure is built around three transvers frames, glued together with spacers Sorry, a little out of focus. The curved wind deflector stumped me for a bit, so I've gone for a solid block of 6 mm sq lime sanded to the curve and cut out to allow for the door access. The lower frame slots into the well in the deck The sides actually run forward to the bulkhead and close those opening For the forward planes, I mounted a ply former that rests on the deck and acts to close it all up and strengthen matters. I'm using thin cyno (new experience for me, many glued fingers...) however, for edge to edge seams in .5mm ply it works well Here it is with the forward planes mounted The rear open bridge sits 12 inches off the deck, here is the base and side skirts fitted. Note the transvers 6mm lime wood needs sanding to the camber of the deck And finally installed on deck I love this stage as it looks so like the part completed real boats you see, plywood wheelhouse awaiting the next stage Cheers Steve

Sounds good, the offer remains open for whenever you are ready. I'm learning a lot as I go as ever, so worth letting me walk across the minefield before committing btw, let me know who that guy is who's knows what he is doing, I'd like to meet him.... Steve

The true alignment of the propeller shafts are key to the look of the boat and in particular propeller clearance. A tiny angle difference makes a big difference in this. I always set the holes in the frames for them before planking to ensure this angle is correct, then sheathe them afterwards. Also, not in this case, but on some vessels (like the s-boat) the outer shafts are not parallel with the keel but set at a slight angle, without the right alignment holes, I would just mess this up To me, this is simpler than trying to align the hole correctly afterwards Correctly, this hull entry has a fitting plate that slides over the outer shaft and covers the actual hull entry, I will probably etch this plate as it has surface bolts Hope that helps Cheers Steve

Back and back to work First, continuation of getting the hull surface sanded and filled properly Looks good, but with all the different shades its hard to see the blemishes, so quick coat of grey primer And the problems jump out More sanding and a move to find surface filler (car body stuff) and its starts to take shape better shape Now, I'm not making excuses, but the effect I'm going for is not perfection, I want to leave a hint of the diagonal planking and also the odd blemish as real baots are like that. To my odd mind, plastic kits look too good and that impacts on realism. I'm probably alone in this view... Still this stage seemed good enough to add the rubbing strips in 1 mm sq lime Nicely defines the chine and sheer line, in particular round the torpedo cut-out, a very distinctive feature of this boat. In the shot below, I've also added the bow edge strip in 1 mm x .5 mm line. This is not a rubbing strip as the sides have, it is just a defined flat. The inside edge of the torpedo tube cut-outs is raised on the deck and these three join together as the second image shows. Then the chine strip is faired in with more fine surface filler to strengthen and complete the smooth lower hull form. Not really obvious in the picture, sorry So, I'm leaving the hull there and moving onto the wheelhouse, post tomorrow on that item. After that I'll cycle back to the scuttles and engine cooling water outlets which are quite prominent and an interesting challenge So far, so good Cheers Steve

Sitting here in the sun having just finished reading The Kamikaze Hunters by Will Iredale. The story of the British Pacific Fleet in the last months of the war including of course Victorious. A stirring read bringing into sharp focus the work these vessels did during the war. If you’ve not read it, I recommend it cheers steve

I did think that myself however there is an upper sleeve that locates the tiller and takes the bending moment. This sleeve only shows on one side from what I can see. I guess it could have been demountable but why go to that bother, still a little puzzled by this. It’s these little things that I love about this hobby one other feature that is very distinctive and mentioned a few times in the reference books are the coiled ropes on the forecastle and at the stern. Before we left for holiday, I dug our the rope walk I made many years ago. Will set that up when we’re back and have another go at rope making. True rope lays flat and curves in a way that braided cord can never do. Should be fun cheers Steve