Steve D

That must have been such fun, probably mixed with a lot of frustration. Of course all plank shapes are splines on a hull, but its tough to use them to draw, even spline to fit points seem to wander off (well mine do anyway). I'm much happier with bezier curves for frames, you can adjust them to fractions of a mm, well accurate enough for a hull that will be planked with 1mm lime wood. Not sure that plaque counts as a model, but its going on the wall anyway 👍 Cheers Steve

Quick update on the lines As I posted earlier, I made up a 1/2 scale 1/2 hull model from the water-tight bulkheads shown on the as-fitted plan Here is is packed with roughly shaped balsa Some time later then sprayed with filler primer and mounted on a scrap of MDF, seen here after a quick coat of varnish with the frame spacing glued to the back board. The MDF to help is stay straight, it is shaped like a canoe as I've said before and I was worried it would start to bend After much head scratching, I decided on spacing the model hull frames every 7 real frames (so every 140 inches, or ~3 inches on the model) as this gives me 15 frames and allows two of them to align with two of the water-tight bulkheads I have drawn, so confirming the shape at these locations. These have been marked on the half-hull model below. Note the curve of the sheer-line. So, all good so far. Then I made up a finger gauge from some scrap plywood and started tracing the shapes (its black because it was laser cut, lazy or what?...) So, at this point I would report this all worked perfectly and here are the lines all finished. Sorry, it really didn't work. the shapes were all over the place, not aligning at all, stupid idea But, and luckily there is a positive but, making that model showed me that the hull has really simple lines. Slight tumblehome to the stern, no bow flare, very small amount of forward keel hollow etc. So, I went back to the drawing and plotted three horizontal lines, water line and two others guided by the WT bulkhead frames and used these to draw Bezier curves at each model frame station. For those not used to this term, there are two curve forms you can use to model irregular shapes, spline and Bezier. Spline, or more correctly cubic spline is solving a 3rd order quadratic across each 3 point in sequence, move one along each time. Spline is the shape wood (or other material) takes up when bent. They are very hard to edit as they start from the point but the equation then takes over and they wander off the point. Bezier sticks to the point and allows you to edit the tangent lines at the point to produce a smooth curve Hopefully this will help explain. With increase radius turns, more Bezier points are needed to create a smooth shape. Here you can see one of the frames being edited, next to a black frame that was drawn from a bulkhead. To the left another frames has been drawn The blue points are the curve points, the green points and lines indicate the tangent lines at the point. By adjusting the green point so that the tangent lines match either side of the blue point, a smooth transition can be created. This is probably not helpful, sorry. Just trying to explain how after a few hours of fiddling I got this done (screen print conversation to .jpg renders really think lines, I don't know why) Here you can see the red model frames, the black frames are bulkheads not used by the model but there to help to calibrate the model frames. The plan view above shows the three horizontal slices and above that the deck line Anyway, long story short, this very simple hull was easily (relatively so) extrapolated from the bulkhead lines and allowed me to produce this drawing. Overlaying the frames enables adjustment of the sheer line and some further refinement. It is all an iterative process until it looks right. For once, I'm actually quite pleased with this and will build from it. You can see I've added the mast, the prop shafts, the turtle deck and the bow torpedo tube which all need to be incorporated in the frame drawings And I now have a rather useless spare wall plaque Cheers Steve

I'm not sure if tumblehome increases roll stability but it certainly makes it harder to board

That intrigued me so I checked March which has line drawings of many of these vessels. In general after the A class, most destroyers have a straight sheer line following the break at the fo'c'sle though there are exceptions. "Express" has a distinct drop off to the stern, almost a slipper stern. The raised middle impression is probably caused by the optical illusion as you say Cheers Steve

Nice pictures, thanks As I've said before, making a hull puts you, to some extent, in the mind of the designer in a way that no kit ever will. You can't spend hours sanding a hull without getting a feel for the shape. What is immediately apparent after looking at those pictures is that the sheer line is either straight or even slightly raised towards amidships. See this picture of Kasumi (1902) also build by Yarrow, is similar (also note excellent plating detail on this picture, flush riveted for speed) While HMS Dasher, another A class from Yarrow (1895) shows the same banana curved sheer-line as Havock raised to the bow and stern. Also a great picture with some nice subtle weathering clues It may be that for the early smaller boats, they felt that increasing the bow freeboard would help sea keeping but abandoned that later on with the larger displacement boats, any guesses? I also learnt yesterday from March's British Destroyers that the draft marks on these early boats were plotted from an invisible line joining the lowest point of the propeller arc at the stern to the break in the keel at the bow. I just love that kind of detail Cheers Steve

Exactly, I love the hint at a ramming bow, what were they intending to ram to you think

On of my reference books is "Torpedo's and Torpedo Vessels" by Lieut G E Armstrong from the Royal Navy Handbooks series published in 1896, I love these old books. This contains the following passages: The first order for destroyers was placed with the different contractors by the Admiralty in the beginning of 1893. By October of that year the Havock, the first of her kind, was launched from the yard of Messrs Yarrow of Poplar, and her official trial took place on October 28th. The trials of this vessel, which will subsequently be described, were so exceedingly successful that the Admiralty at once gave out orders for the remaining boats to Messrs Yarrow, two to Thornycroft and two to Messrs Laird As their name implies, the torpedo boat destroyers of the British Navy were built for the purpose of ridding the seas and the channel in particular, of all torpedo craft which the enemy care to bring into action ....... For it must be remembered that the destroyers, both in their engines, boilers and general construction, are entirely different to anything that the Navy, or indeed the whole world, has ever had experience of before. to cram an energy of 5,000 hp into a tiny vessel of 250t and to work the engines to 400 revolutions is to represent a formidable duty to the engineers... Also in that book is this illustration of the IRN vessel Sokol which I'm including for @Dmitriy1967 Her is a picture of her, probably taken around the hand-over time, no weapons fit yet People forget the revolutionary nature of the late Victorian Navy where each vessel was likely to be already out of date when launched. From sail to Dreadnought in a generation Just sharing Steve

As a postscript, this is my work in progress on the prop print file. It's not up to @Iceman 29 standard as I don't know how to get the loft to lose the last tiny flat at the end of the blade and the washout is only an estimate, but the views match the drawing reasonably well. I'll print them locally and see if they look OK at this scale (40 mm blade diameter) before getting them cast in bronze by Shapeways. Shown here with the correct overlap at the blades closest distance, outward turning Anyway. most notably, you can see the different hub lengths to permit the A frames to be in line while the blades miss each other Cheers Steve

Thanks Pascal. I've been drawing the props yesterday actually, so trying to fully understand the geometry. Many of these early TDB's used three shafts and gears with smaller diameter props, but this one had two direct driven shafts and I guess needed these large props to absorb the Shaft Horsepower. The prop shapes are also early and far from optimal in shape. The hull is more like a canoe than a warship, she is only around 8 ft across where the props are and they are 6 ft 5 inches diameter. Given the shafts are 6 ft 4 inches apart the tips would have clashed if they had been in line. As it is, they meshed very closely indeed with an 8 inch step back on the port shaft. I've also not seen this arrangement ever before. The draft of 7ft 6 in all comes from the prop clearance. The hull also has no "flat" or hollow where the props are to help concentrate the water flow and no area on the rudder forward of the hinge to help balance the force. These are very early designs and the hydrodynamics of high speed craft was still in its infancy. Plus no bilge keels 😱 just imagine this vessel at speed in any kind of sea, breaking over the bow turtle deck and rolling like a pig's bladder. Then try to aim a hand-trained 12 pdr high up on that tiny gun platform. Hard men, this is a calm day, try fighting from that!! The only saving grace is that the early torpedo boats were even smaller and worse..... Cheers Steve

Thanks Andy. To view the collection, the process I've adopted is to email the Brass Foundry (the plans are stored at Woolwich not Greenwich), the email is [email protected]. Andrew Lin is the guy I've most recently spoken to. If you email and let them know what class of vessel you are interested in he will let you know what plans they have. Specific vessels can be limiting in a search, but worth pointing out a specific vessel if you have one. Obviously they changed over time, so a period also helps as they will have plans from various re-fits. Lines are not so common, as-fitted drawings are the best option. Shell expansions are rare but wonderful if they exist as they show every hull penetration as well as the exact plating layout. If there are a number of plans and you want to see them before ordering (multiple plans can cost £100's so always worth seeing what you are getting before committing), they will give you an appointment to view and get the right plans out ready for you. You will need patience, this all takes time, they are not in a rush... I hope that helps, best of luck with it Cheers Steve

I sense a challenge Welcome aboard, however, I'm guessing Christmas may be more likely, let us see how it progresses Cheers Steve

I can only agree James, the scanning process seems to stretch things a little, it needs checking and double checking, with long distances especially. Use dimensions where possible and available and then re-draw to correct. Time consuming but worth it Cheers Steve

I've been there a number of times, each a wonderful and memorable experience. Some good things in life are still free. This rather low resolution image is available on line of HMS Sylvia a C class boat of 1897 built by Doxford. It gives a good impression of a typical late Victorian as-fitted drawing, luckily, Havock has more detail than this What you will notice is the change in drawing standards over the years. Victorian plans are so detailed and coloured, you can almost build straight from them. In the Edwardian era leading up to WW1, they get sketchier, by WW2 they are really outline only due to an increase in standardisation, leaving the detail to the shipyards and component suppliers. To the comment about expense, the digital file they sent me cost £84 inc vat. Is that a lot? I'm not so sure, model plans can easily be half that and you never know what errors the person drawing them let creep in. A builders as-fitted drawing is the best document available, literally drawn from a ship waiting to be handed over to the navy. As you zoom in to these plans, it is easy to see that Havock's frames were at 20 inch centres, 108 frames between perpendiculars (I love the fact that measurements in those days are generally simple whole inches). This helps scale the digital image accurately to start the process of preparing the model lines. Unfortunately, there are no lines available for Havock, just 7 sections. That could work for 1/96th scale, but won't be good enough for 1:48th. So, I'm taking a leaf out of the shipyard's book and building a buck that I can take the lines from. My plan is to make a half-hull at 1/96th scale and then either measure from that and scale it up or simply saw it into sections. I've not tried this before, but it's worth a shot. Once the full size frames are made, it's too hard to adjust errors, I think this will give me a better start. Here is my former for the 1/96th scale half hull ready for balsa infill and a lot of sanding. The sheer line is like a banana, wild, there are no straight lines on this hull. I will probably use 15 frames for the 1/4 inch model. Note my xtool is getting plenty of use. More later and thanks for your interest, I hope to do it justice Cheers Steve

I'm back with another adventure, a 1:48th scale model of the first ever destroyer in the Royal Navy, HMS Havock of 1983 Following the trials of HMS Lightning (torpedo boat No 1) navies around the world began constructing torpedo boats to launch the new Whitehead torpedoes. To counter the threat of these torpedo boats torpedo boat destroyers were commissioned, capable of fast speed (for the time) and with guns capable of eliminating the threat. This is nicely summaried in this video for those interested Yarrow and Thornycrofts were the first builders to enter the race to build the first TBD's with Yarrow launching the first of the new A class 27 knotter's, HMS Havock in 1893 The A class vessels were all different, some having bow torpedo tubes, some not, with varying boiler arrangements (that technology was changing very fast in the 1890's) and differing level of equipment and guns. HMS Havock was one of the early smaller vessels being 180 ft between perpendiculars and 185 ft overall length, displacing 275 tons fully loaded. She had 3 torpedo tubes and 1 12pdr 12 cwt QF plus 3 6pdr Hotchkiss QF deck guns Here she is as originally fitted with locomotive boilers And the builders model I've already posted, also @1:48th scale So, its a big model, 46.25 inch long but very narrow and not too tall. It will make a nice comparison to HMS Medea, the black painted M class destroyer I built 20 years ago. After my loft room sort-out, I now have the space to display it, so here goes.... As ever, I will be building the hull in wood plank on frame with aluminium plating and brass fittings. Where ever possible, wood for wood and metal for metal While the dolls house is developing, I will be working on the drawings and have enough information gathered now to start the thread, though it may be slow to begin with. The key decision to start recording the build came on Friday with a copy of the as-fitted drawing from the Maritime Museum archive. I'm not allowed to post it here but Lyon's great book on early destroyers has a copy and this is a scan This scan does not do the plan any justice, here is a sneak of a piece of the full 84mb file For those of you how have not had the opportunity to work from builders drawings, you are missing a great pleasure. Victorian builders drawings (in particular as-fitted ones) are a delight, they took the trouble to draw more or less everything, the drawing even lists the small arms carried in the captains locker... No model plan comes close To supplement this wonderful plan, here are a few other references I have to help me along the way So, the journey begins, more soon Cheers Steve

Victorious on a tour of the Balearic islands, wonderful... The best (and most sustaining) bit about building ships is putting partly completed stuff together to get a sense of what the final model will look like, I do it all the time Cheers Steve

Ha, where would be the fun in that.... superb work as ever David, hope to see more progress soon Cheers Steve

Just to say thanks everyone for the kind comments. I'm disappointed to abandon this little project, but life is too short to worry overly. Like the tram I abandoned a few years ago, one full year in, it simply was not good enough to continue with. Minor mistakes add up and reach a point where the end result will bother me and that's the time to chuck it in a box and think more positive thoughts Lots of progress on researching HMS Havock and the one GA ordered from IWM so a nice big build is coming soon 👍 Cheers Steve

That's interesting Stuart, I didn't know such a kit existed. As I'm sure you are aware, Spitfire was also an A class TBD of the 1890's build by Vickers on the Tyne. The vessels from each shipyard differed in detail quite a lot, with different boiler and funnel arrangements and some having bow tubes. Havock, was, I believe, the first of the class to launch, she later became a submarine depot ship. Post the build please when you get around to it (all 3 3/4 inches of her 🔍), I'd like to follow that one. Should be cheap to paint.... Cheers Steve

Ok, it's been a month since I posted on this thread, sorry for the long delay, let me explain. First, out of the blue, I got an opportunity to do some consulting work that I found hard to say no to, in spite of being retired, sort of. This has been rather distracting. Second, we had a week in Portugal, which was great, but also distracting. But, third, and the most important reason, frankly, I'm not enjoying this project. That little truck is just not good enough, and I miss boats. Now, I hate quitting, I mean I really hate not seeing something through, so this decision has been very tough, it's been made and unmade a number of times in my head . Still, at the end of the day, I've decided to shelve the project, put it in a box and maybe return to it one day. However, before I sign this thread off, here is where I had got to, worth posting as there are a few things of (I believe) general interest to share I added the fuel tanks, in brass And then the rear inner fenders in copper to the truck bed frame in brass Now the fun stuff. My new xtool laser cutter is great at really accurate wood cutting and engraving. Here are the truck bed components. I test painted a sample and that engraving shows clearly through the paint. I will use this again.... now assembled, painted sample on the left in this shot Best, in 0.5 mm ply, the rear fender planking pieces, these are really tiny, I had a few goes at them Added to the truck bed Now I'd seen that I can cut 0.5mm ply, I thought, why not use this to prototype brass etchings? This will hopefully cut down on expensive etching mistakes (there have been a few, more than a few....). With the smallest sheet running over £120 now, do-overs are not economical so using wood to test fit etc makes a lot of sense, given everything I do is a prototype Here is the cab frame which would have been etched The foot wells were to be copper Now the engine bay sides and the front grill housing. Short length of 2 x 2 lime wood to hold things together, remember these are all to test shapes only, they are not pieces for the model. Note the small gap where the side fails to quite touch the front wheel fender. This is the sort of gap these prototypes help sort out. Lastly, a mock up to the bonnet, in two halves, see also the inner stowage box on the passenger side. So, it looks OK, but up close there are many small problems. Reverse engineering a kit is a poor substitute for good drawings. Overall, the quality it is not where I want to be with my models, so I won't be investing in the etch sheet, which also means the Cuckoo can't be completed as it needs etched parts It has been a very tough call, let me apologise to those who have followed and provided such kind feedback. I hope I've shown some techniques that may be of use and if anyone wants a copy of the drawing, just PM me. Now I have an Art Deco dolls house to build for my Granddaughter's 8th birthday in 2 months time, complete with 3d printed deco light fittings. In parallel (I always need more than one thing to think about) I'll be preparing the drawings for HMS Havock one of the early 26 knot Torpedo Boat Destroyers of 1895 and once these have progressed enough to be of interest, I will start a new thread to cover that build. At 46 inches long, this will be a nice big boat and make a change from WW2 stuff. To save you looking her up, here is a 1:48th scale builders model of her as originally built with locomotive boilers. Much more my sort of project So, to quote the Terminator, "I'll be back..." Cheers Steve

David, At 1/35th I would need to include a working engine.. That's why I stick to 1/48th, so I can leave such details behind.. Bertie, The process of building an accurate moon base @ 1/700th is a long and meticulous one, it cannot be rushed.. Sorry for the gap in this thread, been dashing around a bit, retirement can be exhausting. Will post an update tomorrow, got some (hopefully) interesting stuff to say Cheers Steve

My needle files, all from Grandad though some of the handles are mine. I love the peculiar handle shape watchmakers files have, helps you control the file, even with my arthritic fingers.... If you see these on ebay, buy them Cheers Steve

This is the best advice, tools used to be for life, nowadays people buy cheap and throw them away... My best tools belonged to my grandfather, who was a watchmaker. They were bought in the 1890's, makes you think

Just spotted this thread, nice subject, I must buy that book. Everyone knows I hate plastic but you're doing a great job with it and nice to see some shell plating, that clipper stern is tough. Personally, I don't think individual planks can be used below 1:48th scale, sheet marking is finer, but you've set a high standard with this one, 👍 The maritime bug is strong, it's held me for over 25 years Cheers Steve

I have no clue what the name stands for I'm afraid, the article in Model Shipwright gives no hint to the reason for the name. She looks like a gun boat, but really, she was intended to be a river/coastal customs boat and sometime presidential yacht, being fitted with a stateroom and luxury cabins aft. Yes, the model is around 1.4m long, it was an RC working model and a big beast. The case keeps it safe, the wood and the brass are mellowing nicely. The quality of the lime strip you could obtain 25 years ago is, quite frankly, superior to the stuff they sell today, such a shame Cheers Steve