Jump to content

brewerjerry

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    3,117

  • Joined

  • Last visited

 Content Type 

Posts posted by brewerjerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Hi

    List looks good...

    but I suppose slightly o/t, but think I recall something about a welkin fighter bomber with a new nose,

    just remember there is a photo of the mock up in the 4+ book...

    high alltitude radar equipped fighter bomber to B5/41,two 1,000lb bombs in fuselage, version cancelled in Feb 44.

    Just need to find a drawing of 3

    cheers

    Jerry

    Duck Egg Blue?, Its all in the mix.

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Copyright?

    Copyright of the original letter owner maybe..

    either way a free ad for flypast wouldnt think they would mind.

    It reminds me of the painting they did in the naval dockyards, a boat had to be painted with paint from one paint batch,the numbers on tin lid.

    If sufficient paint was not available, like in the falklands conflict, the quantity of paint was obtained, then all the different batches mixed together to form a common shade, likewise if the colour was not available the painters just mixed it.

    Thanks to OP, the letter was interesting.

    cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    First, sorry for miss spelling your name Jerry----

    I would say that is correct, my thoughts were that maybe this was where the Whirlwind Merlin reference came from. I'm thinking now, that after the Whirlwind was proposed with the Merlin as you relate, the "Development" came from that until it changed so much it ended as the Welkin and progressing until it conformed to F.7/41

    Hi

    No probs with the mis spelling I get it all the time, your theory makes sense, so if the very original welkin drawing can be found, then it will might give a clue as to how the merlin XX whirlwind could have looked, I must see what I can find, (or might phil butler know of any)

    cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Re-reading what you wrote earlier Gerry, I don't think I said that the Merlin XX Whirlwind was a two seater, I said the Welkin was first called a Whirlwind Development (Merlin XX) and I thought maybe because of that, this was where the reference to the Whirlwind Merlin XX came from

    But I've just had a reply from Phil Butler to an email I sent asking for some clarification to his article, mainly because of what you had written Gerry. In his article it doesn't really explain the contents of Specification F.4/40 but he has confirmed that it was for an aircraft for high altitude. He does though re-iterate that the Welkin was called the Whirlwind Development (Merlin XX) before it was renamed. Here's a copy of his reply:

    Robert,

    TNA file AVIA 15/1033 makes it quite clear that the Westland submission to F.4/40 was referred to as the 'Whirlwind Merlin XX development' at the tender design conference on 17.10.40, at which the Hawker, Westland and GAL designs were compared and the Westland one chosen. It must have been named 'Welkin' shortly after this. By December 1940 there were proposed both a 'Welkin I' (two Merlin RM.6SM) and a 'Welkin II' (two Griffon 61). F.4/40 was for a high-altitude fighter and (although I had missed the point in writing the article) it did call for a pressure cabin. The F.22/39 Spec. did not specifically call for a pressure cabin, although V-A had decided to install one in their Type 414 submission to that Spec. The F.7/41 Spec. issued to both V-A and Westland combined the requirements of F.22/39 and F.4/40. The question is sometimes asked why the Whirlwind was not directly re-engined with Merlins, but I believe it would have needed a new wing centre section to allow for the larger engines and propellers, also the armament requirement for all fighters had by then (indeed by 1937) become 6 x 20 mm cannon instead of four.

    I hope this helps, but if you need more let me know. It might need me to re-visit the TNA files.....

    All the best,

    Phil

    Hi

    Thanks for the quote, so if I read the reply from phil correctly,the whirlwind merlin XX development,( welkin) was not the whirlwind merlin XX, me thinks, as the letter from menesforth at westlands implies.

    cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    It doesn't; it just contains the reasons not to continue with production. The major stumbling block was Rolls-Royce, since they said that the Peregrine could only cope with 100 octane, in short bursts; any requirement to imrove it would be a major redesign, and it was impractical to move it away to one of the satellite factories, and making it at Derby would seriously jeopardise Merlin and Griffon production. Should anyone want it, I've made up a file, with some (not all) of the relevant signals.

    Edgar

    Hi Edgar,

    I would love a copy of the signals.

    100 octane, R-R seems to differ, I can't post the full deatils here due to how I was allowed the notes.

    a few extracted words

    north weald engineers to fit boost cut outs to first three a/c, 100 octane available on station, arrangements made to get suitable spark plugs,

    I think it was only when the 9lb boost was used it could only be in short burst and hence logged after the flight.

    pilots notes also gives the info/settings for 87 octane and 100 octane

    cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi

    Just a a passing note, the words from the horses mouth so to say.

    letter to Air Marshal W Sholto Douglas CiC Fighter Command

    From Westland aircraft ltd. dated 21 Jan 41

    ....

    we today have raised with the director general fighter position, wether it is wise to scrap during this year the proved whirlwind production capacity. We are now able, because of the solution of certain undercarriage retraction problems, to offer to install in the whirlwind twin merlin XXengines, thus overcoming the difficulty of continuing supply of the peregrine engines.This would give the aeroplane outstanding performance with a top speed of 410mph a service ceiling of 37,000ft, and a range of 800 miles,this would be coupled with the improved armament as you will remember, consists of four 20mm cannon, each with 120 rounds of ammunition, to this we can convieniently add two rifle calibre machine guns the whole accommadated in a very accessible manner on the rigid platform formed by the nose.

    Yours Sincerely

    Eric Mensforth

    This letter is in the PRO/NA air 16-326 page 82A

    So perhaps from the extract it can be seen that the twin merlin XX whirlwind is different seperate proposal from the original welkin project, as it had no high altitude cockpit,the original welkin may have been merlin XX, but it was a different from the aircraft refered to by by menesforth in his letter.

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Hi

    You seem to be missing my whole point, facts can just be quoted from any article or book whoever published it.

    I started researching the whirlwind & welkin in the early 70's, thats 40years ago, with many visits to the PRO/NA in london, local record offices, much correspondence with those involved with them, pilots, groundcrew,R-R, Westlands, the factory workers,I was allowed copied many photos, etc, much of which may not even be available to find now.

    It is the first I ever heard of the suggestion that the merlin XX whirlwind was a two seat aircraft,or the welkin, the timescales with westlands simply doesn't add up, wether it was air brit or anyone producing the article, I would personally would like to see the original achive source document that stated the new fact, before I will throw away my old notes.

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Beuteauswertung 10: Spitfire VI cockpit walk-around

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi Kari,

    Many thanks for the posting, I think documents like this are awesome,are there any text pages that go with the report that you can post.

    I have heard that this museum is a bit of a gold mine for researchers....it is good they kept it all, if you ever find any whirlwind stuff please let me know.

    Have you posted this on LEMB, I agree with your assumption of the possible captured spitfire, hope someone has some info.

    Slightly O/T but have you seen the photo over on toch of the mottled camo spitfire currently on e bay..

    http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=21876

    I think this one may go for a few bucks......

    Thanks again

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    and Air-Britain are renown for their accuracy before going to publication

    Hi

    Everyone can make a mistake, I remember when air brit P serials came out, the most remembered one was it had a whirlwind crashing 12 days after its pilot was killed in the crash.

    I still have a lot of air brit stuff, it is a very good basis for starting research.

    according to the british secret projects site,

    high-altitude pressurized fighter, for Specification F4/40.

    also f4/40 called for

    a two seat machine, able to operate at up to 45,000ft whilst maintaining a pressure of 10,000ft in the cockpit,the machine was to be armed with six cannon,and attained 450mph at 25,000ft,power to be provided by r-r merlin RM65M two speed two stage gear driven blowers.

    two westlands proposals an odd twin tandem merlin the p-13 a highly experimental arrangement of typical single-engined layout but in which two Merlin XXs in the nose were coupled in tandem to drive a pair of contra-rotating airscrews through a common gearbox. It carried six 20mm cannon, three in each wing. ( from British Secret Projects Fighter & Bombers 1939-1950 By Tony Buttler )

    and the p-14 the welkin, which we know.

    Both imply the spec f4/40 was for a pressurised fighter from the begining.

    I have never seen anything that refered to the merlin XX whirlwind as a two seater in the 1941 letter or other files.

    An interesting link to one persons thoughts on what a Merlin XX whirlwind would have looked like

    http://www.screenworx.net/Stuart/Portfolio...ationArt.html#4

    cheers

    Jerry

    MPM 1/72- Whirlwind and Sunderland

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Bumping as Jerry seems to be posting and in a whirlwind mood.

    Hi

    True, I am entering a whirlwind phase....... must be the moon.... howls ... Tee Hee...

    Sorry I totally forgot about this thread,

    Yep i think the nose in the kit is the shape of the PR nose.

    It has bulges in the wrong place for the MKII nose, It does not match the drawings I found at the NA/PRO,

    Also there is some stuff in the 4+ book of the MKII nose,

    On page 26 look at the MKII wooden mock up off the armament and compare it with the long nose cone photo next to it.

    They are different, to me it obviously has been modified once for the horizontal fit of the four cannon, ( this was to make room for the proposed nose fuel tank ) then again for the hydrovan feed & Chatelleraut feed trials of a 20mm cannon, If you do not have the 4+ book, let me know and I will send a lo-rez scan for personal research to you.

    I have somewhere a rough drawing, where i tried to superimpose camera installations,must try to see if i can find it,but i have not so far found any actual drawings or photos..

    Cheers

    Jerry

    text modified,

    reason ..... just found my notes about fuel tanks were in nose, not the cameras.

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    In one of my Air-Britain quarterlies I get, there was recently an article about the Welkin. It says that at the beginning, the Welkin was known as the Whirlwind Development (Merlin XX).

    I'm thinking now (after reading the above posts) that maybe there has been some confusion as to what the Merlin XX powered Whirlwind was -- :shrug::hmmm:

    Hi

    The welkin was to a different fighter spec, so I would be suprised that the merlin XX whirlwind, was mixed up with the early welkin, with merlin 76/77 engines, however the welkin may have been know as a development from the whirlwind

    The welkin was authorised for building in jan 41, westlands letters was also issued in jan 41 offering the merlin XX whirlwind.

    So think it is two different projects, however maybe the experience from the welkin design team was used to adapt the whirlind to merlin XX.

    If the air britain article was like the aeroplane feature article a few years back, ( a lot of basic mistakes) i personally would double check the facts, but I must admitt i have not seen it, out of curiosity who was the author of the air brit article.

    The best recent book is in my opinion the 4+ book and the recent book by allied wings.

    cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Fact is the combat record of the Whirlwind as a fighter was pretty dismal in air to air.

    JohnT

    Hi

    True the stats, purely as stats, are not good.

    But take into account that when the whirlwind was first issued, it was deliberately kept away from frontline areas, as it was one of the few aircraft that was capable of attacking a tank.

    I think the quote from dowding was they could be worth their weight in gold in the event of an invasion of the UK.

    Eventually when it was moved more to the battle front, it was already outdated.

    But I often wonder if anyone actually took the stats prorata for other aircraft kills what the actual rates would be.

    i.e total f4f total built 7860

    total enemy shot down 723, and it saw service in a lot of combat zones.

    i.e for 114 whirlwinds they should have shot down 10 enemy aircraft.

    my rough calculation from my notes is 10 enemy aircraft shot down.

    I would like to find figures for other aircraft,( spits hurris ) to compare raw data crunching, of kills, of combat losses, of non op losses to compare.

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Spitfire Mk XII No 41 squadron with D-Day stripes

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Hi

    It is on the spitfire site as EB-Z MB854

    details :-

    3501 SU, delivered to 41Sqn 27 july 44, initially EB-Y then EB-Z, Hit by flak engine cut bellylanded nr Brookland Kent Category B, 17 August 44 repaired on site, 33MU 3-jan-45.

    bases were :-

    June-July 1944: Westhampnett

    July 1944: Friston

    July-December 1944: Lympne

    December 1944: B.64 Diest/ Schaffen

    December 1944-January 1945: Y.32 As/ Ophoven

    January-March 1945: B.80 Volkel

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi

    It might be me being a muppet, not unknown...

    But i think the clue is in westlands comment, we have solved the undercarriage retraction problems.

    True if a merlin xx was just bolted in the place of a peregrine it would move the weight forward,

    But what if westlands had realised this, ( after all they were designers of aircraft), and that this had been compensated in the new design by moving the firewall and engine mounts backwards,thus the weight moves to the aft, hence with engines further aft there maybe undercarriage retraction problems, maybe even increased due to a larger prop diameter as well.

    Unfortunately depite my research I have found out very little, since it seems most of the records have been lost or destroyed.

    One idea might be longer nacelles aft of the wing, (maybe welkin style).

    Maybe the undercarriage slanted forward more..

    But who knows, something may one day turn up..

    I think this thread gives me another excuse to go in the garage to try to find all my old whirlwind notes etc.

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Maybee it would have looked something like this?!

    http://www.ipms-uk.co.uk/smw09-photos/comp...jpegs/rob23.jpg

    Arnold :whistle:

    Hi

    A nice model, but then personally I have never seen a bad whirwind model......

    rockets gone........

    wings gone ........

    cheers

    jerry

    Crikey! Whirlwind Projections & Thoughts

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Hi

    The merlin XX version of the whirlwind was I think a realistic option.

    Somewhere i have a drawing,from an old magazine of a cross between a whirlwind and a early welkin type shape,So I would suspect the engines should come from a welkin kit, extreme outside chance maybe might have been the merlin xx pod, as on the miles m20,beau IIf,Lanc, less the radiators.

    Apparently also when I was researching, there was also the option in 1940 to fit american radials, but I can not recall at present which type.

    So personally I prefer to believe westlands belief that the airframe could take the merlins,

    Why else offer it to the RAF,and then not come up with the goods...

    Surely with all the politics going on between westlands and the RAF,etc, It would have killed off interest in any of westlands future products if they could not have done it.

    The first whirlwinds were due to be PR whirlwinds,it is possible one or two may have been built, then the nose converted back before delivery, apears a PR nose cone was used on the cannon trials whirlwind ( the common photo is often refered to as a 37mm cannon experiment )

    Cheers

    jerry ( a bit of an addict for whirlwinds..)

    414 Sqn (RCAF) Mustang I pedigrees

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    I am looking for some help on finding out the service details of two 414 Sqn Mustangs:

    AG470 RU-M (Hollis Hills' aircraft)

    AM251 'O' (George Burroughs' aircraft)

    If anyone can fill in the blanks for delivery dates, TOS, SOS, etc., I'd be much appreciative. This info is needed to help fill in some material for a Mustang article.

    Cheers,

    Steve Sauvé

    Ottawa

    Hi

    Sorry can't help with details, but have you seen the photos on this site.

    cheers

    Jerry

    http://news.webshots.com/photo/1103258128025949326wMJDQV

    Airfix Trafalgar class SSN 1/350

    in Maritime Modern

    Posted · Edited by brewerjerry

    Hi Dan,

    Thanks for the photos, I do not remember seeing them, my memory must be getting old, but they seem more like intakes, maybe for sea cooling water ( diesel generator exhaust mufflers ? or something else ? ), as they are in an odd place.

    Must make a lot of noise discharging thro a tube, that faces forward, when you want to be quiet, and hiding from a threat.

    The last photo must be devonport there is a dockyardie asleep on the hull.... tee hee.... (a fire fighting suit)

    Cheers

    Jerry

    Airfix 1/350 Trafalgar Class SSN

    in Maritime Modern

    Posted

    Working in Faslane im gonna make mine as an 's' boat in particular HMS Splendid a few modifications but shoudnt be to difficult

    Hi

    Please post details of your build here, I seem to recall from memory the S class was quite different from the T class boats, but maybe it was mainly the internal layout, it was a few years ago.

    Drawings of the S class are hard to find, I worked in Devonport SRC,(... to many years...) and I am hoping to build a complete 'example of class' set of the boats I worked on for refits, etc.

    The old V & C's, I need to do will be a bit difficult.

    Cheers

    Jerry

×
×
  • Create New...