brewerjerry

Hi Just a a passing note, the words from the horses mouth so to say. letter to Air Marshal W Sholto Douglas CiC Fighter Command From Westland aircraft ltd. dated 21 Jan 41 .... we today have raised with the director general fighter position, wether it is wise to scrap during this year the proved whirlwind production capacity. We are now able, because of the solution of certain undercarriage retraction problems, to offer to install in the whirlwind twin merlin XXengines, thus overcoming the difficulty of continuing supply of the peregrine engines.This would give the aeroplane outstanding performance with a top speed of 410mph a service ceiling of 37,000ft, and a range of 800 miles,this would be coupled with the improved armament as you will remember, consists of four 20mm cannon, each with 120 rounds of ammunition, to this we can convieniently add two rifle calibre machine guns the whole accommadated in a very accessible manner on the rigid platform formed by the nose. Yours Sincerely Eric Mensforth This letter is in the PRO/NA air 16-326 page 82A So perhaps from the extract it can be seen that the twin merlin XX whirlwind is different seperate proposal from the original welkin project, as it had no high altitude cockpit,the original welkin may have been merlin XX, but it was a different from the aircraft refered to by by menesforth in his letter. Cheers Jerry

Hi You seem to be missing my whole point, facts can just be quoted from any article or book whoever published it. I started researching the whirlwind & welkin in the early 70's, thats 40years ago, with many visits to the PRO/NA in london, local record offices, much correspondence with those involved with them, pilots, groundcrew,R-R, Westlands, the factory workers,I was allowed copied many photos, etc, much of which may not even be available to find now. It is the first I ever heard of the suggestion that the merlin XX whirlwind was a two seat aircraft,or the welkin, the timescales with westlands simply doesn't add up, wether it was air brit or anyone producing the article, I would personally would like to see the original achive source document that stated the new fact, before I will throw away my old notes. Cheers Jerry

Hi Kari, Many thanks for the posting, I think documents like this are awesome,are there any text pages that go with the report that you can post. I have heard that this museum is a bit of a gold mine for researchers....it is good they kept it all, if you ever find any whirlwind stuff please let me know. Have you posted this on LEMB, I agree with your assumption of the possible captured spitfire, hope someone has some info. Slightly O/T but have you seen the photo over on toch of the mottled camo spitfire currently on e bay.. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=21876 I think this one may go for a few bucks...... Thanks again Jerry

Hi Mike, The best free source i have found is these guys. http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/index-englisch.htm use the search button, type in jumo or ju-88 and see all the manuals they have. I use babelfish sometimes when I need to translate some of the stuff,( it works sometimes sometimes not ) For more basic info try a search in the flight magazine archive. http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/index.html Cheers Jerry

Hi I am hoping airfix may read stuff on this forum..... cheers Jerry

Hi Everyone can make a mistake, I remember when air brit P serials came out, the most remembered one was it had a whirlwind crashing 12 days after its pilot was killed in the crash. I still have a lot of air brit stuff, it is a very good basis for starting research. according to the british secret projects site, high-altitude pressurized fighter, for Specification F4/40. also f4/40 called for a two seat machine, able to operate at up to 45,000ft whilst maintaining a pressure of 10,000ft in the cockpit,the machine was to be armed with six cannon,and attained 450mph at 25,000ft,power to be provided by r-r merlin RM65M two speed two stage gear driven blowers. two westlands proposals an odd twin tandem merlin the p-13 a highly experimental arrangement of typical single-engined layout but in which two Merlin XXs in the nose were coupled in tandem to drive a pair of contra-rotating airscrews through a common gearbox. It carried six 20mm cannon, three in each wing. ( from British Secret Projects Fighter & Bombers 1939-1950 By Tony Buttler ) and the p-14 the welkin, which we know. Both imply the spec f4/40 was for a pressurised fighter from the begining. I have never seen anything that refered to the merlin XX whirlwind as a two seater in the 1941 letter or other files. An interesting link to one persons thoughts on what a Merlin XX whirlwind would have looked like http://www.screenworx.net/Stuart/Portfolio...ationArt.html#4 cheers Jerry

Hi True, I am entering a whirlwind phase....... must be the moon.... howls ... Tee Hee... Sorry I totally forgot about this thread, Yep i think the nose in the kit is the shape of the PR nose. It has bulges in the wrong place for the MKII nose, It does not match the drawings I found at the NA/PRO, Also there is some stuff in the 4+ book of the MKII nose, On page 26 look at the MKII wooden mock up off the armament and compare it with the long nose cone photo next to it. They are different, to me it obviously has been modified once for the horizontal fit of the four cannon, ( this was to make room for the proposed nose fuel tank ) then again for the hydrovan feed & Chatelleraut feed trials of a 20mm cannon, If you do not have the 4+ book, let me know and I will send a lo-rez scan for personal research to you. I have somewhere a rough drawing, where i tried to superimpose camera installations,must try to see if i can find it,but i have not so far found any actual drawings or photos.. Cheers Jerry text modified, reason ..... just found my notes about fuel tanks were in nose, not the cameras.

Hi The welkin was to a different fighter spec, so I would be suprised that the merlin XX whirlwind, was mixed up with the early welkin, with merlin 76/77 engines, however the welkin may have been know as a development from the whirlwind The welkin was authorised for building in jan 41, westlands letters was also issued in jan 41 offering the merlin XX whirlwind. So think it is two different projects, however maybe the experience from the welkin design team was used to adapt the whirlind to merlin XX. If the air britain article was like the aeroplane feature article a few years back, ( a lot of basic mistakes) i personally would double check the facts, but I must admitt i have not seen it, out of curiosity who was the author of the air brit article. The best recent book is in my opinion the 4+ book and the recent book by allied wings. cheers Jerry

Hi True the stats, purely as stats, are not good. But take into account that when the whirlwind was first issued, it was deliberately kept away from frontline areas, as it was one of the few aircraft that was capable of attacking a tank. I think the quote from dowding was they could be worth their weight in gold in the event of an invasion of the UK. Eventually when it was moved more to the battle front, it was already outdated. But I often wonder if anyone actually took the stats prorata for other aircraft kills what the actual rates would be. i.e total f4f total built 7860 total enemy shot down 723, and it saw service in a lot of combat zones. i.e for 114 whirlwinds they should have shot down 10 enemy aircraft. my rough calculation from my notes is 10 enemy aircraft shot down. I would like to find figures for other aircraft,( spits hurris ) to compare raw data crunching, of kills, of combat losses, of non op losses to compare. Cheers Jerry

Hi Just a random thought but after the 1/24 mossie............. perhaps airfix could do a 1/24 whirlwind .................... cheers Jerry

Hi It is on the spitfire site as EB-Z MB854 details :- 3501 SU, delivered to 41Sqn 27 july 44, initially EB-Y then EB-Z, Hit by flak engine cut bellylanded nr Brookland Kent Category B, 17 August 44 repaired on site, 33MU 3-jan-45. bases were :- June-July 1944: Westhampnett July 1944: Friston July-December 1944: Lympne December 1944: B.64 Diest/ Schaffen December 1944-January 1945: Y.32 As/ Ophoven January-March 1945: B.80 Volkel Cheers Jerry

Hi It might be me being a muppet, not unknown... But i think the clue is in westlands comment, we have solved the undercarriage retraction problems. True if a merlin xx was just bolted in the place of a peregrine it would move the weight forward, But what if westlands had realised this, ( after all they were designers of aircraft), and that this had been compensated in the new design by moving the firewall and engine mounts backwards,thus the weight moves to the aft, hence with engines further aft there maybe undercarriage retraction problems, maybe even increased due to a larger prop diameter as well. Unfortunately depite my research I have found out very little, since it seems most of the records have been lost or destroyed. One idea might be longer nacelles aft of the wing, (maybe welkin style). Maybe the undercarriage slanted forward more.. But who knows, something may one day turn up.. I think this thread gives me another excuse to go in the garage to try to find all my old whirlwind notes etc. Cheers Jerry Hi A nice model, but then personally I have never seen a bad whirwind model...... rockets gone........ wings gone ........ cheers jerry

Hi I heard that you can never be cured, only that they symptons can be moderated. cheers Jerry

Hi The merlin XX version of the whirlwind was I think a realistic option. Somewhere i have a drawing,from an old magazine of a cross between a whirlwind and a early welkin type shape,So I would suspect the engines should come from a welkin kit, extreme outside chance maybe might have been the merlin xx pod, as on the miles m20,beau IIf,Lanc, less the radiators. Apparently also when I was researching, there was also the option in 1940 to fit american radials, but I can not recall at present which type. So personally I prefer to believe westlands belief that the airframe could take the merlins, Why else offer it to the RAF,and then not come up with the goods... Surely with all the politics going on between westlands and the RAF,etc, It would have killed off interest in any of westlands future products if they could not have done it. The first whirlwinds were due to be PR whirlwinds,it is possible one or two may have been built, then the nose converted back before delivery, apears a PR nose cone was used on the cannon trials whirlwind ( the common photo is often refered to as a 37mm cannon experiment ) Cheers jerry ( a bit of an addict for whirlwinds..)

Hi Sorry for the delay, it's been a bit of a hectic week for me. I checked all the photo references I have, All show the lysanders without the small nose/tail cones, that the defiants have. cheers Jerry

Hi Sorry can't help with details, but have you seen the photos on this site. cheers Jerry http://news.webshots.com/photo/1103258128025949326wMJDQV

Hi I have some lizzie photos, If no one else replies, I will dig them out, in a few days and pm you. cheers Jerry

Hi Dan, Thanks for the photos, I do not remember seeing them, my memory must be getting old, but they seem more like intakes, maybe for sea cooling water ( diesel generator exhaust mufflers ? or something else ? ), as they are in an odd place. Must make a lot of noise discharging thro a tube, that faces forward, when you want to be quiet, and hiding from a threat. The last photo must be devonport there is a dockyardie asleep on the hull.... tee hee.... (a fire fighting suit) Cheers Jerry

Hi Please post details of your build here, I seem to recall from memory the S class was quite different from the T class boats, but maybe it was mainly the internal layout, it was a few years ago. Drawings of the S class are hard to find, I worked in Devonport SRC,(... to many years...) and I am hoping to build a complete 'example of class' set of the boats I worked on for refits, etc. The old V & C's, I need to do will be a bit difficult. Cheers Jerry

Hi I do not remember them on the s class refits, the mod site has them on the later boats, and launched internally on the S boats. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ojects/scad.htm The SCAD 101 is self-contained externally mounted and launched torpedo countermeasure fitted to UK Vanguard and planned for Astute class submarines. The SCAD 101 Countermeasure has acoustic multi-mode capability and is completely programmable by the user. Communications with the store including mission programming is available up until the device is launched. Once launched the countermeasure executes its mission and then scuttles to the ocean bottom. The 100mm diameter x 1000mm long SCAD 102 is the internally launched equivalent to the SCAD 101. It is compatible with all submarines equipped with a 100mm signal ejector. The SCAD 102 is currently fitted to all UK submarines So personally I do not think that the holes are them,I will search for a photo and see if it jogs my memory, but at only 100mm dia, will it be visible in 1/350. Arrived today from wonderland models two airfix subs, in excellent condition,well done wonderland models .... Cheers Jerry

Hi a few links http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapo...-6_Mustang.html http://www.aero-web.org/specs/northam/f-6c.htm http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000...eng_p51late.htm cheers Jerry

Hi All, I found a video on youtube appears to be a beaufighter If starting without a trolley accumalator, It also has some nice build shots. cheers Jerry

Hi hannants show a live stock of 14 and wonderland models show some stock as well. cheers Jerry

Hi The pilots starter push buttons are in the pilots notes for IIf, also for VI,TFX and XI. And in cockpit photos of IF & IC, so it seems the mod was early on in the beaufighters service. Unless anyone else knows different, it would seem that a trolley acc is not needed, unless the aircraft batteries were flat. cheers Jerry

Hi If i get more time tonight I will try to find from which aircraft the mod was started to be fitted. cheers Jerry