Robbyrockett
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Posts posted by Robbyrockett
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On 12/22/2018 at 7:56 AM, colin said:
I have a Olympos micron, and as you say the needle on that tapers for a very long way and is very easy to damage due to this, perhaps thats's why Iwata didn't go down that route.
In fact the Olympos needle is virtually impossible not to damage, just putting it back into the airbrush and I caught the tip at the very end and got the slightest of barbs,never seen another needle with as fine a point as this, reground it and to be fair it still sprays exceptionally nice.
Don't think I would buy a new one now though, the quality of finish has gone down tha pan
I realized today those numbers were from regrinds.
I've been measuring fresh sets and getting preliminary measures of 6deg 12deg on the iwata and 5deg on the olympos, still have to do some setup to take fully accurate measures but .....same concept nonetheless.
The angle change basically cuts off the last couple mm of skinniest needle.
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6 hours ago, colin said:
But surely it's not the bore size but the taper at the end which gives you the final spray size for fine detail, assuming you don't pull the needle all the way back, which if you do your really not getting the best from the micron in the first place if you purchased it for fine detail painting
Yes, basically.
The nozzle bore has mainly to do with minimum paint volume at opening. So it contributes to detail, once you put in the human factor.
I'm kind of summarizing but for just fine lines;
The main big factors are the air gap size, the angle on the nozzle exterior, the nozzle wall thickness at the tip and how far the angle is carried to the center on the needle.
I phrase the needle thing that way because they basically all use the same main angle. They are just stubbed off at different lengths.
Compare an olympos micron to an iwata micron or gsi 770;
On the olympos it has a thicker nozzle wall, larger air gap, but carries the 6.5-7deg needle taper all the way to a very sharp point.
The Iwata/GSI version the needle is 6.5-7 deg but stops short and changes to 16deg for about 1mm and then it's flat for about .1mm diameter across the tip.
The Iwata version gave up some fine line ability for a stumpier, less delicate needle. Then mostly made up for it by tightening the air gap and thinning the nozzle wall.
Those changes make it do it's lines a little darker though, not as soft as the olympos.
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On 12/18/2018 at 9:47 AM, nheather said:
Nice.
Out of interest, just reading about it and one of the selling points is a 'hand matched head'. I assume that means that the needle, nozzle and cap are selected and matched by experts to ensure the most perfect operation. So what happens down the line and you split a nozzle. Does the whole 'hand matched head' thing go out of the window because you get the one you order?
Cheers,
Nigel
The hand matched head thing is mostly a marketing leftover from olympos. Back in the day when tolerances weren't so tight. Even then it had more to do with matching an air cap to a base.
Now all it really means is that they do a test spray to ensure they did in fact come out centered.
I've known a lot of people to buy or swap individual parts without any change in performance whatsoever.
But if you're real concerned just buy a head assembly and needle from a gsi 770 and for a whole $85 and be done with it.
Apart from the hex shape at rear and the satin finish , it is absolutely identical.
Or just do the 770 in the first place and save up front.
Incidentally, the .18 iwata or gsi (again identical) is in reality a larger nozzle than the .23 and likely better with modeling paints ....go figure.
.23' actual nozzle bore is .27ish mm diameter
.18 actual nozzle bore is .355 ish mm diameter.
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11 hours ago, nheather said:
Useful to know. To be honest a bespoke trigger is not something I would consider because I think it is too expensive on the chance that it might help and I would have no idea what to ask for.
I bought the Iwata tall trigger because I assumed that they had done the R&D to come up with the best general design - but having got it I struggle to see why they bothered as it is barely any different.
But to be fair, I haven't used it yet - maybe when I do that extra 1mm will make a world of difference.
Cheers,
Nigel
Yeah I kinda figured. You'd have to be pretty serious about an eclipse to spend a third of it's cost just making it work for you. Just figured I'd throw that out there.
You might try mocking up something like the badger krome has on it's air valve, just to see if the lack of ridge ahead of the air valve is the issue.
Hot glue is good for just mocking up little body mods.
If it works you'd have to get creative about making something more permanent but...
Or eh, trade it for a c+
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On 12/13/2018 at 11:13 AM, Bryan71 said:
Can I ask how much it was and we’re did you get it from
I know, and work with someone who makes custom triggers.
In fact he owns the patent on non-ambidextrous triggers. They are mostly one-offs, made on manually operated mill and lathe and run about $45 USD but you can ask for any height you'd like and they are angled for right or left handed use.
If you're interested in one let me know , I'll post up (if allowed) the info to contact him. Otherwise I guess PM me.
Although honestly my guess is that you're feeling either the lack of air channel in front of the valve or possibly feeling the .5mm (I believe) larger body diameter.
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On 12/15/2018 at 4:28 PM, colin said:
It looks a good product, and your video shows quite a lot of abuse, and the needle pops back straight, not sure what the nozzel would be like though after that, but your showing the strengths of your needle not the nozzel.
Looking at the sharpenair video the needle after the repair still looks bent to me, but hard to tell against the white background
It actually helps to keep the nozzle from damage. Its not nearly as stiff as a standard needle.
In the testing so far dropping the brush of course still bends the needle but only a mild curve rather than the 90 deg angle a standard needle gets.
So I can only guess that the combination of not transferring the sudden impact so suddenly plus having less of the deformation that makes a bent rod become wider around the bend site is basically saving all the nozzles tested.
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Save yourself a bunch of cash and get a gsi ps770
It's a cm-c+ with a cm-b head and needle.
Zero difference in quality between it and a cm.
In fact the only differences are cosmetic. Many use the nozzle,needle and other parts as replacements for their cm's.
I don't mean it's similar, I mean it's literally the same.
Unless your opposed to C size cups or a Mac valve there really is no reason to spend for the CM.
Sotars do in fact compete fine line wise, though there are some minor points of quality that are not as high as the Japanese brushes if your super picky.
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On 12/2/2018 at 5:20 PM, Spoilsport said:
I didn't say it was an upgrade. It does everything the Krome did at half the price.
About the same price now ....at least in the US
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Well, I can heartily rcommend the Mr hobby ps 290 if you ever were looking for a fan brush
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The bd180 is IMO the only cheapo worth messing with.
Careful tuning can make it a fairly decent performer.
The bd130 is pretty terrible.
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On 11/22/2018 at 4:31 PM, JohnTA said:
Thanks for the info. I'm curious what is classed as large area?
Anything you could use something with about a 50-60mm fan pattern to lay down a base color.
Maybe something from roughly 1/10 scale cars on up to 1/4 scale if you were really pushing it.
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56 minutes ago, little-cars said:
It looks interesting, but needles have different tapers on them. I can;t see how it can get that right.
Paul
Actually they are generally the same main angle, just some are carried further into the depth of the needle before rounding out the tip so to speak. They appear to be different because of shaft size or the depth the main angle is carried to , but when measured are in fact the same main angle.
The depth variance accounts for different profiles and nozzle sizes.
Also there are 4 angles in the runners of each of the tool so essentially you are doing a 4 way grind to match your particular needles profile then polishing it out.... instructions for different profiles are included.
I can tell you I've not ever heard anyone have anything but praise for them.
The results are not perfect, but usually at least as good as factory standard needles when carried out correctly.
Personally, no factory needle performs well enough for me without a good polishing, same goes for many artists. Sharpenair gets me a needle that will do all but the last 5percent of finest details I need from a micron.
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15 hours ago, nheather said:
Have you seen the SharpenAir needle repair station. Advertised as "stick the needle in the slot, a few turns, repeat with the next slots and out puts a perfectly straight and polished needle".
Sounds good but I wonder how well it actually works.
It also costs as much as five needles (depending on airbrush make) so I'm not sure I would get my money back from it.
Cheers,
Nigel
Btw it might be cheaper than you think.
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6 hours ago, nheather said:
Have you seen the SharpenAir needle repair station. Advertised as "stick the needle in the slot, a few turns, repeat with the next slots and out puts a perfectly straight and polished needle".
Sounds good but I wonder how well it actually works.
It also costs as much as five needles (depending on airbrush make) so I'm not sure I would get my money back from it.
Cheers,
Nigel
Sharpenair is a great product.
For artists who do a lot of painting with no needle protection it's pretty much guaranteed to pay for itself.
Also anyone making money from their painting...as even a trip to the local supplier could cost way more time wise than a needle is worth.
Part of what I wanted to accomplish with this needle was being able to use such a device, should it ever need repair.since the other high end needle can't be repaired properly because it's only case hardened.
The sharpenair works very well for all but the most high performance $500-$1500 airbrushes designed for the absolute utmost in detail performance. It isn't absolutely perfect but it does do a close second of a job.
I have nothing to do with the sharpenair but I can say it's a really great product.
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I actually have some pre orders already.
The first I was really happy about.
An older guy who has trouble with his vision except with certain colors. So he paints in a limited range of color.
He can't see his needle tip so he can't make repairs very well.
A friend of mine made a low trigger that inadvertently helped him continue to airbrush despite some movement issues with his fingers.
So, these were some unforeseen benefits to some mods that were really cool and even if it's not real successful it's fun to have accomplished helping this guy continue to paint.
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9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:
I like the looks of this but what are we looking at $ € £ ¥ wise ? Thats the trick, if its too expensive customers would probably stay with traditional needles ? If its in a realistic cost range you’ve got a hit on your hands.
Dennis
For someone like myself, who Is very comfortable reshaping and polishing needles. I'd personally be on the fence...maybe buy one for my main brush just for convenience.
For the cost, for my other brushes I'd probably just buy a bunch of Chinese needles...rework them... toss the ones with inclusions and have plenty of needles not to have to worry about it.
That's assuming my others were 1.2mm shafts that I could buy Chinese needles for.
Which is why I'm looking into exactly what brushes to expand availability to next...after the microns.
Infinities maybe, they suffer from a weak needle. Maybe an olympos grind as their needles are becoming less and less available and are super weak.
Eclipses perhaps, they use a 1.4 shaft and are basically the tank of airbrushes, often used by those who would have a finer brush destroyed in short order ....
Currently there's a needle on the market that's case hardened to 33 microns depth and polished that sells quite well at about $100. I looked into that, it's actually quite cheap to produce.
Another goal was to beat that by quite a lot. Both in price and in the fact that you can re sharpen this to your hearts content and never lose the initial properties. Where with the other needle if you do damage it ..that's all, it's either trashed, or becomes a regular needle after repair.
I won't give the actual cost just yet but more than factory, less than that other high end needle.
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9 hours ago, nheather said:
Yes I can see that, looks good from that aspect. Just saying that it would have more of an impact if it started showing the brush spraying a beautifully sharp line, then abusing the needle and then spraying a beautifully sharp line.
Then you would have loads of people queuing up to order.
Out of interest, is the needle metal, or some form of plastic, polymer or fibre - or is that a trade secret?
And finally, just for a bit of fun, what would happen if you tried to airbrush in space?
Cheers,
Nigel
Lol , well... It's metal. A combination of alloys put together through powder metallurgy.
I've got some video like that actually. Which I'll bundle with a press release I'm gonna submit to some magazines and such....see what happens.
As for airbrushing in space...I guess if you were in the space station it would work....if you could get the paint to seal off the cup and get sucked in initially...???
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3 hours ago, nheather said:
Your video would be more convincing if you also showed the brush still spraying nicely.
Not saying it doesn’t, just that the video just shows you brushing a piece of metal against a piece of paper and it appears not to bend.
Cheers,
Nigel
Yeah, this was just some early testing.
This is definitely not the promo material or intended to convince anyone. Just kinda sharing what I've been working on.
The rest won't be released until the thing is actually available here in about a week.
Anyway, it's not indestructible or anything....just a whole lot more resilient than factory stuff, just keeps those accidental drags from causing any headache.
Holds a polish for a long time as well.
Anyway if the first few people like it as much as I do then hopefully it'll make a little wave.
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2 hours ago, stringbag said:
The needle does in fact bend if you look closely, but it springs back to it's original shape once the pressure has been released.
Sounds like a damned good idea to me.
Chris.
That was exactly my goal.which to be honest took a lot of educated guesswork but finally worked out.
Thanks !
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Yes you can, and the nozzle plate for the gp-70 and gp-50 are the same.
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11 hours ago, little-cars said:
One needle can be flexible for general and detail painting, the sparmax GP-35 is an example of that.
As a trader one thing that worries me about these single brushes is spares.
If there are standard Badger spares, then there shouldn't be a problem.
If it's a bespoke then spares could be difficult long term if it is discontinued.
Paul
Idk if I'd call a gp-35 a detail brush.
But yeah for a general purpose brush one needle should be fine.
But good point
Before I'd get an Apex I'd put in an email or call to both badger and Apex and see if they are using a needle that is offered on one of the common models.
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5 hours ago, little-cars said:
So what brushes and nozzle sizes are the needles compatible with ?
Paul
The first set I'm making for .18 iwata micron and gsi 770's.
After that I'll expand them to demand, provided the first users actually like them and confirm I did a good job
So ..?
I know this wasn't part of the question but to expand...
I had raw material created and treated by a specialist powder metallurgy company. Only way to get hardness and flexibility. After that I use my own machining equipment to shape and super finish the point, then final polish.
I use an overlapping microphoto comparison to make sure it matches the profile of the original needle for the intended brush.
50-60hrc hardness but done in a way , and to an alloy combination that actually makes it quite flexible.
Properties go all the way through so while a repair done with a sharpenair may not give the original smooth finish it will still maintain it's properties if ever it does need a repair.
The whole thing is patent pending now so I felt alright sharing some early tests.
Hoping you guys would feel its novel enough to not be construed as pure advertising garbage.
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Being tired of bent needles I developed my own.
I won't post a link to my store I'm gonna sell these from....at least until mods say I'm allowed and I actually have some available but thought you guys might find it interesting.
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Yet another re branded badger/ thayer and Chandler Omni frankenbrush.
1 needle should work.
Basically all angles are the same.
The larger nozzle sizes simply use needles that don't take that angle all the way to the center before rounding it to a point.
If the calculations are all done right yeah, no reason it shouldn't work for all of them. But it's still a balancing act and can only work perfectly for one size.
But these are tiny differences not likely to affect anyone but a detail artist.
Anyway all the badger models this thing is made up of are good, so should be good.
Harder & Steenbeck Evolution - First impressions
in Airbrushes
Posted
V2's have their notches placed into an indentation or slot that goes around the back end of the needle