Milos Gazdic

Lovely

I wish the same. So many of them in my storage and 90% yellow. Wonder if exposure to UV would help?!

Arado Ar 96 is one of my favorite aircraft ever! But I don't think there is any vacform canopy for it One can maybe buy some old kit like vacform Hit Kit or MasterX resin kit & use those? I have MasterX kit in Belgrade but the vacform canopy is completely yellow :(((

Avions Nº233 article & caption confirming we are seeing #1 here too: in what I call the "third style" of markings above (CFP star was removed completely. The rudder is unchanged. Tail marking receives a white disc under numeral 1. FFI was applied to the fuselage stripes - black letters over white stripe)

I believe it was an overpaint done on unit level and with not so heavy coverage. I wish I could post images here to show the image I have edited.

I forgot to mention that chapter 18 of Docavia's book writes (once again my own translation so take it with the grain of salt): "As they left the factories in Tarbes or Toulouse, the D.520s of the Doret Group received an individual identification number, painted on their tail fin in black on the white circle. (IMPORTANT!) Each of the two squadrons numbered its aircraft from #1, without taking into account the other squadron. As a result, the numbers from 1 to 5 were worn by two different aircraft of two squadrons!" To overcome this issue suffix BIS is given to Ossun's airframes (i.e. #2bis) or they are referred as: # of X location (i.e. #2 of Ossun). Of importance is: "The #1 of Toulouse was destroyed, on August 24, during an accident which cost the life of the Chief Warrant Officer De Bar." so basically #1 of Ossun & #1 of Toulouse, that were also camouflaged differently, didn't have long "overlapping life", lasting only one day! (#1 of Ossun Nº548 was built on 23rd, and #1 of Toulouse Nº531 was lost on 24th according to Docavia & 25th according to Aero Journal (on the same day they were built). If anyone has access to these loss records - I would appreciate the pointer. Of note: There are some discrepancies between SNºs given by Docavia book (published earlier) and Aero Journal HS Nº8. Main issue is Black Noº1 of Ossun which in Docavia book is marked as Nº526! Anyhow, Nº548 is mentioned in use up until GC I/18 in Docavia book too (where except it's listing in GC I/18's inventory it says: "On 7 March, D.520 Nº548 was scrapped after an accident" which fully matches A/J's statement in article's chart. I tend to believe to A/J team a bit more (I still hold Docavia as a bible on the subject) due to the fact it was further after the publication date of Docavia book. Correct me if I am wrong in this belief please.

if you take the photo & brighten it you will notice camouflage pattern showing through & yellow cowling areas too. For me it still seems like a resprayed airframe but I am not sure what Mr Urbanke brought as the conclusion once the color shot surfaced?

I have replied over on HS explaining my belief (turning to be correct) that the "worn out" D.520 is indeed "Black 1" often portrayed in profiles LINK to Hyperscale discussion on the same subject Big thanks goes to @GiampieroSilvestri for the pointer. With too many books & magazines on the shelf I often fail to locate the needed info All the citations below come from Aero Journal Hors-Serie Nº8's last, fourth chapter, dealing with "Liberation Dewoitines", the authors explain (my own translation, mind it, I don't speak French, so take this with care): "As elsewhere in France, the resistance was far from united in the R4 region around Toulouse. Alongside politically oriented organizations was the OMA (Organisation Métropolitaine de l’Armée), made up of non-politicized former army officers and reservists, whose sole aim was to drive the occupiers out, from French soil. Its local leader, Major Pommiès, could not find common ground with the other resistance organizations and decided to create his own unit, the Corps Franc P (which later became Corps Franc Pommiès). On June 6, 1944, the date of general mobilization, no less than 6,000 volunteers joined the CFP, making it the most significant military formation in the region. In fact, in the R4 region, things will develop swiftly immediately after the Allied landings in Provence on August 15, 1944." ... "On August 19, Colonel Ravanel, commander of the French Forces of the Interior (FFI) in the R4 region, signed the official birth certificate of the “First FFI Fighter Group of the R4 Region”. Two former Air Force officers have refused the command of this unit, so Mr Segaut offered it to Marcel Doret on August 20." ... The text further explains that Doret & few other companions (pilots) travelled by car to Tarbes / Ossun where they arrived on August 22. And also explains the use of D.520s Nº8, Nº513 and Nº531 as the first machines used in the action by SNCASE pilots. ... "At Ossun, Caillette’s predictions proved to be too optimistic. The French found only one D.520 (Nº548) in good condition but partially dismantled. It took 48 hours for it to be able to fly again. The aircraft was officially taken over by the CFP on August 23 and duly decorated with the Corps Franc badge on the fuselage. Six other aircraft, awaiting delivery of spare parts from Toulouse, can be returned to flying condition within a fortnight (two weeks period)." ... The photo of the aircraft in the initial post is printed with the caption: "The “#1” of Tarbes/Ossun (Nº548) as it appears at its recovery. The Luftwaffe markings have been roughly repainted. (Photo M. Garel, Collection: G. Fruchart)" The photo of Black 1 is given under, captioned as: "Against a background of Pyrenean landscape, Nº548 with the black and white stripes and the CFP insignia, probably at the end of August 1944. (Collection: R. Cassou)" Photo shows "Black 1" with B&W stripes, CFP star, 1 on the tail, and roundels with Lorraine Crosses over them (most famous photo we all know). ... Obvious from the captions and a table given at the end of the article "Black 1" and worn out the machine of my interest are in fact the same aircraft and the aircraft was obviously swiftly prepared for action. I suspect, looking at the photos showing "#1" on the fuselage behind the CFP star that the airframe received only one top colour & one side & underside colour! I believe this has not changed until the end of its career, with small overpaints of marking changes. Some of them are explained in the text: "August 26 also saw the arrival of Captain Gérardot to Toulouse. He was sent by the General Staff in Algiers to Doret. This was the first step toward the Air Force taking control of the unit. Without wanting to make him a sort of “political commissioner”, Captain Gérardot probably came with the order to avoid any possible drift, even if the conduct of the Doret group had been irreproachable up to that point. He gave the order to repaint the planes with markings closer to the traditions of the Air Force (one can assume that the CFP insignia had disappeared at this time)." Morane-Saulnier plant in Tarbes-Ossun (where one part of the unit was based, inc. famous "#1) was pushing out much fewer machines from their "factory" compared to SNCASE in Toulouse. Their camouflage obviously differed. Tarbes-Ossun machines were similar to "Black 1", where SNCASE ones had more extensive "dotting" applied to them. When they moved all to "circled" numbering on the tails the font differed a bit too. I am trying to compile as many of these machines together so I can more clearly understand these differences and finesse of markings that were obviously changing on a "daily" base. Regarding "Black 1": _first style was: Black 1 behind the CFP star. Lorraine Cross superimposed over the roundels on 4 positions. Lorraine Cross over the white area on the rudder. _second style: Black 1 moved to the tail position. CFP star remains. B&W stripes were applied to the fuselage & wings. _third style (standardisation of the markings): CFP star removed completely. The rudder is unchanged. Tail marking receives a white disc under numeral 1. FFI was applied to the fuselage stripes - black letters over white stripes. Additional NOTE: The photo I have of "Black 1" showing this phase show only FFI on the fuselage, but the photo of "Black 2" from Tarbes-Ossun, photographed side by side next to SNCASE's "Black 2" shows the difference in the camouflage between these two units/factories. Additionally, spinners seem to have received 1/3 white segment (similar to some Luftwaffe units / could be the utilization of spinners produced during the Luftwaffe / Erla's control over the production, but could equally mean that this feature was applied to some of the surviving Ossun machines at one time. Just like some of these Ossun machines received softer dots "a la Luftwaffe" on the sides of the fuselage. _fourth style would probably be in line with GC II/18 looks With GC II/18 Saintonge taking over Group Doret's aircraft, stripes do disappear & areas are overpainted and heavily dotted. Based on Aero Journal & Docavia book, It is clear that Nº548 survived & served in both GC II/18 & I/18. An accident by Cne Mangin was documented on March 7, 1943 which seems to bring Nº548's career to the end. Could this possibly be Nº548 in GC I/18 ??? [differently marked in Docavia book's caption!]: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/download/file.php?id=138748 Thank you

Awesome Giampiero!! Will check it out Milos

That is my idea based on things I read - but trying to put visual puzzle together

It was not a small aircraft by any means, Colin. At about 2500kg - it was a decently sized aircraft. Approximately similar size to Emil. Probably a touch higher stance on ground. I do have quite a few of those Luftwaffe machines from both North (North France / Belgium) and South. But I have not seen any of them in such derelict state. I somehow have a belief that this photo was taken down on the South West & that this same machine later became famous "Black 1" of CFP:

Ciao Giampiero, Yes, according to my info: JG 101 and 105 which were scattered over many Belgian and French fields: Brussels, Nancy-Tomblaine, Paris-Le Bourget, Chartres, Pau, etc. and JG 103, Austria used D.520s for training purposes. This aircraft clearly comes from one of those. Still question remains: where was the shot taken? What is the source of the photograph? And are there any more out there that anyone knows of

Hello Ed, It could have easily been ex-Luftwaffe aircraft, since there is an overpaint of swastika on the tail & someone seems to have painted presumably yellow rudder with some dark color (green?) I have quite a few of the shots showing those Luftwaffe airframes (in use or captured) but never seen the above one. Link you have posted doesn't seem to show the airframe in my picture, or maybe I am not good with "reddit" - since I am not using it much? Thanks for the willingness to help anyhow! Best, Milos

As I am going through things I have regarding Dewoitine D.520, I found this interesting machine: Based on the uniform of a man standing I am unable judge much but it seems like an Allied uniform. I have nothing about this aircraft & have no clue where does the image come from. I tried the Google Image search but had no success. Does anyone have any info? A better scan/print of the same image? More images of the same machine? Any further info? TIA Milos

Hello, Thanks for the pointer to the article. Do you know who has written the article?

Awesome build & scheme a small suggestion: When you shoot your models find a mid tone neutral gray background and shoot them on it. That way your meter on the camera will not be 'tricked' to overexpose the shots & make the camo look brighter than it is (when you shoot on black background).

Thank you very much, once again @BS_w

Hello guys, Thanks for the kind explanation. So I can guess that it basically represents km/h as units just expressed differently - correct? Best, Milos

Can some of French speaking members help me please: What is "Badin"? Found it in Docavia's D.520 book: "Vitesse de décollage: 135 badin (plan fixe calé à +1°)" is it a knot maybe? Sorry for my ignorance.

I guess Graham meant to write: Mermot?

I have never seen an article about "Red Undercarriage" per se. But the information is mentioned in books & articles here & there & scattered web-wide and things were mentioned in many forums & web-wide... just some of them are posted here: Link 01 Link 02 Link 03 Link 04 Link 05 Link 06 Link 07 One thing we know - there is no certain rules in late war Luftwaffe Sadly. ...and it's true that most of the camo was ground concealing but markings had a purpose clearly it that they always had... and bands were used till the end.

Hello Mr Corsair I partially agree. On the other hand we might find some similar example of another D.520 from the period or even find some other materials, arguments and counterarguments that could help those modelers make up a decision in which direction to go to. So far based on this discussion we have quite a few options: _some kind of buff paint (Chamois?) _some kind of blue paint (Gris Bleu Clair?) _completely NMF finish _NMF finish with some sort of Aluminum dope (similar to D.520DC / Fw 190 above?) Am I missing any other option? (I am not taking in the consideration that there is option that one of the airframes had different color on top surfaces compared to undersides)

_Red undercarriage - from my memory was used on ASM machines (AS engine with MW50)? G-6/AS? G-14/AS? Some of the machines that are documented were showing RLM25 band of JG27 _RLM66 undercarriage - at the end of war it seems that many new & refurbished undercarriage legs were painted RLM66 (Me 262, He 162 the most but seems that Bf 109s received some too) _re: wrapped leading edge colors - there seems to be 10 different theories. I personally don't believe that reflection was one of the reasons (after all germany had a very few fully unpainted aircraft at the end of the war and they didn't paint spots like these to reduce reflection. if war was lasting a bit longer we would for sure see more of the NMF a/c from Luftwaffe). _some NightFighter units did use the daylight aircraft but some of NJGr10 were pure nightfighters (and maybe NJGr 11) and they still retained JG300's band although the repainting of the aircraft was done after repurposing. Even few of the dedicated nightfighter aircraft in JG300 still carried the band although with all the radars equipped they were clearly not doing daytime sorties. Would this help with airfield organization and not necessarily the air to air recognition only? _brighter lower cowling could have been RLM76. There is another dark 109 that belonged to JG300 (Green 7) that also had RLM76 cowling (Maybe complete cowling was in standard camo) and yes - I agree with Jochen - there seems to be a stripe on the oil-cooler.

Hello Giampiero! Based on this whole discussion - white in-air D.520 should be a post war machine - correct? Coming back to our "buff" could the finish of the D.520s we are discussing be similar to this one: This is a Flying Heritage A-5 during the restoration process...

I know of this discussion where Jerry has joined with some explanations: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/primer-used-on-luftwaffe-aircraft-specifically-fw--t201275.html but I am not sure if that is the one. For me strange thing is that RLM is non-defined color. So how one can know that the part recovered is painted with RLM 99 if there is no document stating that? Also, if any variation of the color is allowed, what would be the point of having the recognition band that is "unrecognizable" if you use "any color"? or shall those be called decoration bands? (also sometimes I wonder - why did they go into all the trouble of painting and developing "best" camouflages, to go & paint whole cowling in yellow?) Anyhow, this should not turn into 99 discussion. I still strongly believe that discussed aircraft should have bright green, saturated band