Hannes

A very fine work , dear Harvey ! I look forward to see the continuation ! Well done ! Hannes

Great work , dear Stephen , congratulations ! It´s very interesting to see how four modellers approach the same topic with very different methods ! I like the solution regarding the frontal engine suspension very much and I guess I will represent a similar construction . Two remarks : The central fasteners are different for each side ( mirrored ) with different wings . The frontal fasteners show drilled holes . In my opinion the frames of the frontal bodywork are connected only by one strut ( between the magnetos ) Many greetings ! Hannes PS: A question : What scale ?

It looks like a plausible solution to me . Very well done ! Hannes

I was reading the Rogliatti interview with engineer Massimino again and he said that the 451 engine ( internal name : 151 ) was never installed in a racing car ! Even if I have repeat what I already posted I want to tell the 806 history again according Massimino´s records: - On the 4th of July in 1925 the general design of the car was layed down with an output drive shifted towards the left side for enabling a deep seat position ( wrong statement above-sorry ! ) -In September 1925 Massimino constructed the suspension of the rear axle -In December he reckoned the clutch according advices of his boss Cavalli - In January 1926 we was busy to construct the bodywork and numerous other details The chassis was an usual construction at that time and the engines were developed by the Zerbi team as we all know. In my opinion the development of the car was very much delayed because the 451 engine was a time-consuming wrong construction . Many greetings ! Hannes

Dear Harvey , it´s the only source of information regarding a driving 806 / 451 and I don´t think that it reflects the truth . Why should Fiat bring Bordino back to Europe ( he was driving races in the United States at that time ) just for test driving a car with an engine which was exploding all the time ? And why did none of the surviving participants mention a predecessor ? (like Massimino and the talkative Salamano ) I´m sure that some photos would still exist and more reports by other sources as well .Of course some parts were already manufactured at the end of the 451 test runs ( winter 26 / 27 ) like the bodywork which had to get adapted to the new 806 / 406 chassis and most likely many other preparation works were done as well . This 451 engine never left it´s test house imho and in Sebastien´s book there´s also no hint regarding a real 806 / 451 . If someone who´s reading this thread has different informations , please contribute ! Many greetings ! Hannes

Dear Harvey , I intend to draw the 451 version but still need some time till all parts come together in my head . Your observations are very precious and I will use them for my drawing ! A very interesting observation regarding the leaf springs ! But I doubt that there were any test drives with the 451 engine . As far as I know this engine was never installed in a driving car , only on the test stand . A lot of pistons were required and a mechanic became deaf during the test runs ! The whole construction beside the engine was not perfected as well imho . For the 451 version no cam fairings were provided of course and I believe that two straight rows of big , fat louvres on the bonnets were designed .We can see these kind of louvres on all predecessors and they were situated only on ( almost ) straight panels of the 801 -805 and not on very curved parts . If a real 806 / 451 would have existed , the louvres would be smaller as well imho and other problems should have been already solved . Many greetings ! Hannes

I´m convinced that the key for understanding the whole 806 / 451/406 concept is the Codognato painting ! It´s the missing link which was right before our eyes for a long time and we didn´t realize it ! It´s the base for scientific reconstructions of the 806 / 451 and the early 806 / 406 version as they were planned . And it´s possible now to draw general plans of both versions and to tell a great part of the whole story . However , some aspects still need further research . Some additional observations : -A longer steering column most likely was provided for the 451 and early 406 version imho and a lever on the right chassis rail similar to the Mefistofele . -The new 406 bonnets were not yet manufactured when Codognato painted them .Bigger and less louvres like on the predecessors were painted . Smaller and more louvres were established on the final version due stability reasons on a curved surface imho . -The new radiator case without the hole for the steering cross-rod was not yet manufactured as well .As it seems the steering system was not yet completely planned at that time . -The dimensions of the exhaust system are still the same like on drawing 1 . In my opinion the 4-stroke engine did not require these oversized manifolds and pipes . The exhaust system was not yet constructed when Codognato painted this virtual car ! -The heat protection shield was provided as a smaller version with less height . -The scoop on the right side was realized at a later time . -The stiffening construction below the chassis rails most likely was established after the installation of the 406 engine . -The useless right cam-fairing gives a hint that a central engine was provided first and the shifting of the engine happened after the manufacturing of the bonnets . It´s possible too that it was kept for aesthetical reasons . The question is :Why there was no new painting of Codognato after the real car was constructed ? Well , an artist needs a commission if he wants to earn money . I guess Agnelli was not in the mood for that . This painting was not published as an advertisement paper before the real car won his race . All informations were kept secret and the car was constructed under camouflaging conditions . The painting was not made for the public but was provided as a memorial document inside the company . Maybe a director said to Codognato " Even it´s not realistic anymore it looks similar enough , just paint a 15-number on it and finito ! " I suppose this decision was bad regarding our model but good regarding our research ! Many greetings ! Hannes

Dear Olivier , sorry I don´t have a clue if this manufacturer is interested in the improvement of his product or wants to give advices . But I have another suggestion: Have you ever heared about the silvering technique ? About 25 years ago I bought a kit by a manufaturer named Hi- Q . I don´t know if this company still exists and I never used it , it´s still in my stash .In Germany this technique is known as " Silbrieren " You can achieve chrome , silver , gold , brass and copper effects and also add every color you like . It´s a quite complicated procedure and you must wear rubber gloves .But the result is what matters . The adress is ( was ? ) HI-Q Enterprises GmbH , 2401 Ratekau ; Bahnhofstr. 5. I´ll post an advertisement slip of paper in the next hours. Many greetings ! Hannes

In my opinion it´s necessary to talk about Codognato´s contemporary painting - our drawing 5 - again . Roy´s statement was that these kind of posters never were realistic because they only should transfer emotions and artistic freedoms are allowed . I don´t think that´s true . In my opinion Codognato wanted to represent this car as realistic as possible but he already painted it when the real car was not yet completely constructed .It reflects Massimino´s plans at the beginning of 1927 and not the final result imho .I guess there was a cooperation between engineer and artist . So-what´s different ? -The steering lever is situated far more frontal than the final solution . -The steering cross-rod between the frontal wheels is situated more frontal as well and goes through the radiator case and not the bonnets. -Therefore there was room enough for a stream-line covering of the frontal manifolds and an additional panel in this region. -The quadrangular exhaust branches became round in reality . -The white tyres which were mounted on many predecessors were replaced by black ones . -The wrapping around the steering wheel looks exactly like versions of the 805 but became one-colored later on . -The shape of the fairing´s right downside most likely should look like on the Salamano photo above but was cut and altered .( that´s important if you want to reconstruct the 451-version , dear Harvey ! ) -The gap is covered by a panel with louvres . An important issue is the color scheme. The predecesssors showed red painted rims , spokes .hubs and brake drums .I cannot rule out that our 806 was a red-wheeler too ! The exceptions are the outer sides of the brake drums. As it seems these parts were not painted at all ( photo 4 and others )I guess they were surrounded by a strip of red color . If we look at the painting from this point of view we could possibly learn a lot about the development of our car . The 15-number was subsequent painted imho and a credible representation of the number on the furrowed bonnets was too difficult even for an good artist . Many greetings ! Hannes

The book I mentioned above arrived today . As Roy already said there´s nothing new regarding our 806 . On page 61 on this thread we can see the chapter which is relating to our car . But the book itself is a treasure box full of informations about Fiat´s golden age . A lot of beautiful pics and photos can be seen and you can travel back in time if you look at them . The first photo shows Carlo Salamano and his driving mechanic Ferretti in his 805 .The shape of the fairing reminds me of our drawing 5 . Conclusions ??? The second photo with Nazzaro´s autograph shows the surface of the dashboard with circular structures . The painting originates from 1922 and shows two 804 ( Bordino on board of the 11 ) and a Bugatti .It´s interesting for us because we can see the typical Fiat bloody red of that time which could have looked similar on our 806 . Many greetings ! Hannes

Very interesting and very well done ! The brake system parts and the engine are my favorites . Regarding the engine : In my opinion the frontal engine suspension was a hanging construction below the second cross-member ( inside the radiator case . )There must have been connecting parts on the massive compressor imho . Unfortunately we cannot see this construction on our 406 drawings but the engine drawing of the originally provided 451 2-stroke engine shows a solution . The Protar / Italeri representation with a frontal suspension on the crankcase looks logically but most likely is wrong .The rear suspension had to carry almost the whole weight of the engine imho . Great work ! Hannes

Welcome , Stephen ! It´s a pleasure for us to know that we are not the only ones who want to reconstruct this great car . Now we are curious of course how your CAD- model looks like . Please , show us some pics ! Many greetings ! Hannes

Thank you , dear Roy ! We really have a giant thread here and it´s easy to loose survey . However , I will enjoy this book and maybe there are some hints in other chapters . We already gained many informations which allow us to build realistic models . Many icings on the cake were found and it´s possible that we already reached some limits . But some discoveries in the last time are reasons enough for staying optimistic . Many greetings ! Hannes

You are right , dear Harvey ! I still remember the various trials of our good Olivier but most of the Italian persons or institutions remained silent or even hostile .And Roy also did his best , but almost no responses as well . And there are a lot of Tifosi in Italy who should be interested in their own motorsport history ! Not a single native Italian contributed on our thread ! Luca di Montezemolo was fired in 2013 and we know that he tried to reconstuct this car at the beginning of this century . I´m sure it was a failure and we never heared about this project anymore . And he´s a rich man similar to famous collectors like Jay Leno or Rick Wright . I wonder where the last part of the 406 engine is today and where Massimino´s documents are hidden. As it seems we are the only ones who dare to reconstruct this car , even it´s only a model .Maybe some day our research will help to reconstruct this racer in1:1 . If this is the case , it would be fair to give us informations now and not to wait in the background . I´m sure that some important documents still exist and possibly some more photos . This car is a cultural icon not only for Italy but also for Europe and the Italians should be proud ! No reason to be ashamed about it´s destruction.We will revive it ! Hannes

I ordered the rare book " Trent´anni di corse .Storia della Fiat " by S. Boschi on Italian ebay . This book was published in 1966 and it describes the years when Fiat participated in GP racing activities . I don´t expect new photos but with many eye-witnesses still alive at that time we could possibly find out some details regarding our research . Because it´s written in Italian , translation programs will help .They improved a lot in the last years . More soon Hannes

Many thanks for your translation work , dear Harvey ! Some informations will be useful for the construction of our models , some other will be less helpful because some systems were altered in our car . BTW . The button for the fuel pressure also can be seen on photo 3 ( right side of the dashboard ! ) Unfortunately the construction inside our 406 compressor was never published as a drawing , contrary to it´s predecessors . There are many drawings of the compressors 403-405 in Sebastien´s book and I hesitate to show them because they possibly could put us on the wrong track . Many of the co-driver´s tasks had to be done by poor Bordino and it´s possible that some systems were altered beside the compressor . Maybe the supercharging pump was not necessary anymore because the compressor did not only suck in pure air but an air-fuel mixture . Many greetings ! Hannes

Dear Nick , thanks a lot ! My point of view regarding nr.6 : Photos 1 and 2 show the pre-racing car with removed panel . ( this means after the first Monza test drive ) On these photos we can see all inlet-and outlet louvres of the right side .The driver´s seat prevents an air cooling of the tank on the right side , that´s why I believe that the frontal louvres were part of the 406 concept from the beginning .Same goes for the 6 outlet louvres around the Bordino tip .Drawing 1 cannot give an answer because it was subsequent altered . In my opinion only the 3 inlet louvres on the left side were additional attached because they look very slip-shod elaborated . We also should not forget that in 1925 this car most likely was planned as a two-seater . The co-driver´s seat prevents a direct air-cooling of the tank as well . And none of the predecessors had tank-cooling louvres in it´s rear bodywork .As it seems the 406 was a very hot little engine ! The closed bodywork shape on the left side of our 806 keeps the heat inside the car , maybe therefore an open left side was planned for the successor as we can see on drawing 2 . Many greetings ! Hannes

Looking at the drawings above again I have to correct my point of view . The tank right behind the engine seems to be the breather tank of the dry sump lubrication . The oil tank itself appears to be situated between the firewall and the dashboard . It´s also interesting to see the differences between the second drawing and reality regarding the size of this breather tank . If we look closely at the 2 photos of the two 4-cylinder 403 engines we also can see some differences .By the way : The general plan of the 802 and it´s engine 403 still exist as well . Unfortunately not a single detail plan of a Fiat racing car survived that could show us all connections of the pipes (oil , water and fuel .) A look at other contemporary racing cars could help to find solutions . Many greetings ! Hannes

It´s a vicious punk , dear Harvey ! This guy invaded the soul of Mr . Agnelli ! Now we know the reason for the destruction of all Fiat racing cars !😈 The new developed 405 engine was one of Zerbi´s masterpieces but the whole concept of the 805 seems to be quite old-fashioned compared to our 806 . We all know ( by our research ) why and how this development happened and the gap is actually not too big if we consider the circumstances . Many greetings ! Hannes

Dear Nick , if you are interested in the 405 engine I could show some technical drawings which are published in Sebastien´s great book . The magnetos are always situated on the left side of the engine and the oil tank hangs on the fire wall . That´s why there was enough space for a riding mechanic . Hannes

Not a single photo of the 406 engine survived and a look at the predecessors could possibly give us hints how the surrounding could have been designed . From above we can see 2 photos of the 403 four-cylinder construction , one photo of the 404 six-cylinder- and another one of the 405 eight-cylinder engine. These engines were very different compared to the 406 U-type ( in-line engines with carburetors directly connected with the cylinder head and compressors separated from fuel supply ) . Some other components ( like pipelines , firewalls , ignition wires and so on ) could have looked similar in our car , that´s why I posted this collection . Many greetings ! Hannes