rossm
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Posts posted by rossm
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Thanks for the info. That built one looks nice, very nice.
I was hoping the 45TRS 'Polkadots' option was one flown as part of Able Mable so I could have a silver (natural metal ?) aircraft in my Vietnam collection but it's not easy to find information on that detachment (even worse than Patricia Lynn). I'm going to have camouflage on an F-4, B-57G, F-100, F-105 and F-111 to go with the black RB-57 and O-2 so a different finish would stand out.
Some searching around more obscure parts of my bookshelves and the web has got me as far as......
Camouflage seems to have been introduced around 1964/65 (?) and the KA-45 panoramic camera was fitted about the same time. There were 16 aircraft in the Able Mable in August 1964 so maybe I can get away with the 'Polkadots' option in silver if I leave off the panoramic camera.
Any more information gratefully received,
Ross
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Magna's Beaufighter II conversion is a bit of a dog tho.
I know it got a terrible review from Mike McEvoy in Scale Aircraft Modelling and Wooksta obviously doesn't like it much but I got on quite well with mine.
Ross
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I want to build one of these in 1/72 and just got the Hasegawa kit (the only game in town ?). I got the box with 'Kathy's Clown' on the front but none of the options gives a location for where they were based and I would like to do a Vietnam one to go next to my 'Patricia Lynn' RB-57E. I've got the Warpaint and the Osprey Air Combat books on the Voodoo but they're short of details.
Please can anyone help with the following:-
Base locations (and dates ?) for 'Kathy's Clown' 45th TRS, 460th TRW, SEA camo; 66th TRW, silver; 'Polkadots' 45TRS, silver.
Detail photos for the nose cameras and sensors, also details of mission equipment - e.g. I know ECM pods were sometimes carried but how often and where were they mounted, were drop tanks usually carried ....???
Thoughts on what needs to be done to update the kit - I plan to scribe the panel lines and I'm happy with decals for the instruments but does it need a new seat ?
Thanks in advance for all help,
Ross
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The Airfix fuselage is a bit undernourished, the engines are a (bad) joke and the oil coolers are too small. It's only advantage is that it gives you tailplanes the right size for the horizontal ones on a Mk1, although you need to remove the dihedral ! It also is the donor of choice for the Magna Mk2 conversion which removes the problem of the engines and makes a reasonable model. For a reasonably priced model from the box I'd go Matchbox but if you start to think about adding Aeroclub engines, Aires interior... then i) take more water with it and ii) pay out £25 for the Hasegawa version!
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You're presumably aware of the picture of TF.1 RH773 of the ATDU at Culdrose on page 37 of Geoff Wakeham's book "RNAS Culdrose 1947-2007"? Type C roundels and fin flash, overall silver or maybe white: pretty bland, I'm afraid. There's also one in the background of another picture on page 56.
BTW Said book (Tempus 2007) was excellent value at £12.99 but is currently remaindered at less than half that.
Nick
Thanks for that Nick, I don't have that book but I'll get it. I did find this photo in Flight (on page 96) which shows one unidentified a/c at Culdrose, captioned as having three homing torpedos but the quality doesn't really let you see them.
Wooksta, thanks for the info, RH746 was an ATDU airframe at some time in its life.
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Still trying to assemble data re the Brigand. Have lots of photos and (I believe) most of the books covering the airplane....
I have been trying to ignore the Brigand 'cos I didn't think it fitted into my RAF and Cornwall theme but I did buy the recent Warpaint on Brigand, Buckmaster and Buckingham ('cos there was a Buckmaster at Chivenor). This thread got me looking at that again and I found some Brigands went to Culdrose with the ATDU (which also had a Lincoln there). So now I'm looking forward to the Valom kit and wondering what other books (except the Putnam on Bristols) cover the Brigand in any detail ? Obviously I'm very interested in the ATDU which used the TF1 which, seeminlgy, will be one of the variants offered by Valom.
Any pointers to help me with a model of a Culdrose based Brigand much appreciated,
Ross
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The photo in Morgan & Shacklady - Spitfire The History - shows an aluminium (?) fin and a camoufalged rudder and states :-
Prototype Spiteful, NN664, flew for the first time on 8 January 1945 with the normal Spitfire large chord fin and rudder. The larger unit was installed in April/May. Note Royal Navy legend on fuselage.
PM me an email address and I'll try a scan but the print quality isn't that great,
Ross
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I've used the Joe's decals sheet and didn't get on with it - they just seemed not to want to stick or conform to surfaces. I've since bought some of these but haven't tried them yet.
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Ross,
Wonderful scans of the Wellington.
I´d like to have the Battle, too. Will build it first, just because it´s smaller.
Best regards,
Lúcio
Battle scans sent - lots of versions to choose from, some would be easier than others,
Cheers,
Ross
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PM sent re Wellington scans.
Looks like Walrus has the Lancaster/Lincoln covered.
I can also do some stuff on the Battle if you like. What are you going to build first ?
Ross
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The Putnam is a bit disappointing - it says at least 15 types of jet engines were evaluated in two Wellington test beds but only gives one picture with a rear mounted Whittle, also one with RR Dart turboprops. They're small and not easy to scan 'cos of the spine of the book.
Wellington Special (pub Ian Allan) has a double page of photos with a rear mounted Whittle - again not easy to scan and poor print quality to start with.
If you can't get them any other way I'll try scanner or digital camera - too short of time just now,
Ross
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I was just about to log out when I spotted this post and thought "Ooh, I'll have a quick look at this". Bill, I'm always impressed by your modelling, and Ross, I must say those are beautiful 1/72 Meteors. Is the Mk IV the old Frog kit? If so, you've done a magnificent job with it.
I gather that MPM/Special Hobby are releasing a Mk IV soon in 1/72, if they haven't already. I'll be keeping an eye out for it, but I still intend to build my Frog kit. Yours whets my appetite even more!
Cheers,
Tim.
The MkIV is the old Frog kit (probably from the Novo era and with a spare Airfix canopy from a MkI conversion replacing a green or blue tinted kit one). Having seen the price of the MPM one I'll probably try to get another Frog one if I 'need' one (about £5 on evilbay) and add a bit of detail. If you rescribed the raised lines they'd look the same from a couple of feet. It's one of my favourite 'oldies' for sure.
Ross
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Thanks for posting that Ross, very interesting. The reason for the different styles of roundels is due to I beleive, that the change from Dull WW2 colours to Brighter Post War colours which happened around 1948. As is normally the case it took a long time to change all markings. At around the same time squadron bars came back into use - to replace the two(or one, or three!) digit squadron ID codes. Some squadrons were a bit keener to apply these - hence the anomaly of some aircraft having the two styles of markings.
There's a photo of VW261 of 609 Sqn in Warpaint No 22 showing type C roundels underwing with full squadron bars and brighter post war markings. This is noted as being in 1951. No way of knowing if the upper wing roundels and fin flash is dull type "C", but I would assume so. On the following page is a clearer pic of VT242 of 63 Sqn., with bright coloured roundels and WW2 type fin-flash. I've been scrabbling around for more pic's - I'm sure I have them somewhere..........
And..I see in the right hand corner of your pic that theres a PR10 - with mid blue intake fronts - any chance of a pic?
Looking again at the photo Profile it is likely that the colours of the C roundel and fin flash are the dull ones. If you're generous they even drew the colour 3-view that way. It does seem to make sense following your explanation. Even so I'm not going back and changing mine now (at least I don't think so, mutter, mutter
). The photo also shows aircraft with large and small upperwing type A roundels - a real mixture. It was a Flight magazine photo from a 1951 issue and is on This page of their WebsitePR10 photo - your wish is my command so here's one showing the side with the A.N code the right way round, the other side (also A.N and I'm now pretty sure it should be N.A) is another mistake I've found since corresponding with you on Meteors ! The mid-blue probably came from a Humbrol pot with the number 14 on the (blue) lid.
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However - quite like the idea of an F4 with earlier WWII dimension dull wing roundels and fin-flash, but with squadron bars and bright post war fuselage roundels. Found a couple of examples so far from 63 Sqn and 609 Sqn...
However....... if I can find a pic of a 92 Sqn F4 with full red/yellow bars..............????
The old Profile has photos and a 3-view for one with 600 Sqdn red/white triangle markings and a weird roundel combination. I built mine in 1/72 using the old ESCI sheet (intended for the F8?)
I note I went for bright colours for the wing roundels, probably interpreted the B+W photos that way,
Ross
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Some early PR Spitfire variants
Havoc Intruders and Turbinlites (yes, I know about the High Planes ones, might, just might, get one finished "real soon now")
RAF Trainers - Prentice, Balliol, Athena, Provost, early JP, Anson, Varsity, Oxford etc.....
Some of the Century series are unavailable/need updating e.g. RF-101C, F-102, F-106
That would keep me busy for a while,
Ross
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In addition, and reinforcing Julian's point above, Tamiya also copied the horizontal stabilisers and elevators from this "TFX". Unfortunately these originated from a Target Tug variant which had the elevator trim tab actuators moved to the upper surfaces of the tail to avoid fouling of the tow cable. The TFX had the elevator trim tab actuators on the lower surface of each elevator.
HTH,
Ian
Another of my hobby horses - why not preserve aircraft as what they were, rather than something they were not ! I actually want to build some target tug models and was overjoyed when I found Cosford had a Mosquito TT35 but when I went there on my way to the Nationals last year I found they've painted it as a bomber and the bits relevant to the TT role are missing - the unique cut-out and bumps are there but painted black and my camera struggled to capture them in the prevailing gloom.
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Freightdog[/url] Models' post='344623' date='Jun 7 2009, 12:09 AM']This is an interesting thread. As a decal producer I feel I have to come to the support of Model Alliance, I don't think sweeping statements that MA decals are no good are at all fair. Johann's original comment included that they were too expensive, perhaps thats because he is in South Africa where the exchange rate hikes the price up, some of the sheets are pricey (eg new TSR2 sheets), but for such a small market where else are you going to get them from? Also I believe the colours run to around fifteen or more, that sheet is not cheap to produce, and will occupy the printer (Fantasy Printshop, a one man operation) for two whole weeks of work solid! As I understand MA recent sheets are either printed by Fantasy or Cartograf, you can't honnestly fault either of them on print quality, I think the Tornado was printed by another company (I won't mention the name as I don't want to make a false comment), they are not as good, I wouldn't use them, but I don't think MA do anymore either.
On the statement of register issues, take into account that its not just the red that needs to be in register if you print roundels all in one, if the red is perfectly centred it no good if the blue outer circle isn't! I always prefer centres on my sheets done seperately, and my printer (Fantasy) removed the centres anyway when he's checking the artwork (which takes him several evenings to do), because he does not make a profit if the first batch are trashed because of register issues. If I order 200 sheets from Fantasy, they print around 250 to allow for failures, I get 200 good ones and the rest go in the bin if there no good, or get used as samples. The odd poor one slips through, but if I send it out and sombody was unhappy with it, I'd gladly change it or refund them. Those 200 sheets will take at least six months to sell by the way, so not a quick return on your investment.
One other comment about the decal artist, I can't draw my own stuff, I pay someone to do it, he sends it to me and I sign off on it, to producer an A5 artwork takes several months of going back and forth by email, normally done in the evening as I have a day job to (as does Gary Madgwick). If there's a mistake in colours used or sizes once its cleared by me, well thats my problem. I've had to add corrections to two sheets I've done so far.
I'm not planning any new decal sheets at the moment, there just isn't any money to be made, even though some modellers think they are too expensive. In general I think BM is turning into a bit of a wingers website, its either too expensive or wrong, now theres a sweeping statement for you !
Colin
Trouble with this sort of post is it brings out the worst in everyone - and I'm no exception. We all tend to remember the bad things long after the good ones are forgotten - but then with something like a decal sheet we expect to have a good experience.
In my case I bought an MA sheet for European Air Arms Update and the aircraft that was top of my list to build from it has, to me, a major problem in that the codes (which are in a unique style) are printed in black instead of mid grey. There's also at least one error in the instructions where the same FS number is quoted for two of the camouflage colours on one aircraft - at least that's easy to get round.
MA/Aviation Workshop seem prone to these small but important errors - remember the errata sheet for the (expensive) Lightning book ?
I'm going to think very hard before buying any more of their stuff as that's two disappointments in four purchases and I haven't tried using the decals yet !
Ross
It takes two to make a contract - in my case MA offered a decal sheet for a price and I thought 'it's pricey but I'll pay that price for a Polish F-16 plus a German Phantom plus...' so that's my acceptance of the contract (I'm at liberty to decide not to buy) but MA didn't fulfill their part by delivering an accurate Polish F-16 'black codes, not grey as clearly visible in many photos'. Therefore I feel unhappy and to prevent others feeling unhappy I would like to warn them to check for errors before handing over money. If that's whingeing then so be it !
Ross
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WEE (Cold Weather Testing) Flight operated a Canberra in the winter of 1955-1956. I have no idea on the serial, but I think it was a B.2. I have a photo of Canberra B.2 WJ776 in Canada for the Toronto Air Show in September of 1955. Was this plane the WEE Flight bird, or was it just in Canada for the show?
Thanks,
Jim
WJ776 is listed on strength of 139 and 6 Squadrons in the Air Britain serials book and the Delve/Green/Clemons book. I can find no reference to cold weather testing in the latter, nor in the Putnam on English Electric (both of which are pretty comprehensive). RAF Flying Training and Support Units (Sturtivant, Air Britain) doesn't even list WEE but it does show up in Flying Units of the RAF (Lake, Airlife). Winterisation Experimental Establishment seems to have been an RCAF unit with an RAF Section attached until October 1949 after which A&AEE took over responsibility for RAF trials. WEE became the Canadian Experimental Proving Establishment in November 1951.
Needs a 'Cranberry' expert to take this further !
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Trouble with this sort of post is it brings out the worst in everyone - and I'm no exception. We all tend to remember the bad things long after the good ones are forgotten - but then with something like a decal sheet we expect to have a good experience.
In my case I bought an MA sheet for European Air Arms Update and the aircraft that was top of my list to build from it has, to me, a major problem in that the codes (which are in a unique style) are printed in black instead of mid grey. There's also at least one error in the instructions where the same FS number is quoted for two of the camouflage colours on one aircraft - at least that's easy to get round.
MA/Aviation Workshop seem prone to these small but important errors - remember the errata sheet for the (expensive) Lightning book ?
I'm going to think very hard before buying any more of their stuff as that's two disappointments in four purchases and I haven't tried using the decals yet !
Ross
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Ah, so no airbrush now?
I used it on another model that's happening in parallel and couldn't even get air throught it after I'd cleaned up. I just don't trust it. It's a problem that will have to be solved but the 1/8" flat brush works well with Xtracrylix and the finish is more than ok once the proverbial flat varnish top coat is on.
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Another alternative is the SMER Hurricane IV. It's the old Heller kit (with wing planform issues ?) plus resin rockets, rocket rails and radiator. That seems to have disappeared off Hannants list but I've one in my 'For Sale' pile. I'm not quite feeling like giving it away but £4 would get it posted to the UK,
Ross
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The cow being, of course, a Friesian (Black and white patches).
I wasn't brave enough to mask the wraparound camouflage so I'm brush painting it - as I did my Harrier quite succesfully. It's early days and it'll need at least two coats but at least it's progress.
The light grey (FS36628) is Xtracolour X260 - RAL7035 - given as an equivalent by David H Klaus IPMS Colour Cross Reference. The otherwise excellent instructions missed this possibility.
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I can't find any confirmatory photos, but it's possible that the VII had the broad bulge, over the cannon bay, like the early IX & VIII, since it was not incuded in the mods for the narrower bulges, which were brought in at the beginning of 1943.
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Edgar
Spitfire at War Vol.3 Has a rear view of a VII at Harrowbeer (one of Pete Brother's Wing, actually Don Nicholson's aircraft NX.L MD172 of which there are many photos) showing narrow bulges and the horn elevators very clearly. Must finish my 1/72 version (so near yet so far for a decade or so !),
Also, a page or two on, one at Skeabrae with narrow bulges.
Another detail to watch out for is the number of spokes in the undercarriage wheels - 4 on Nicholson's machine.
Ross
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So...not sure, love to find a PR10 in Dark Slate Grey/Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue!! So may go Silver or "Day Fighter colours"
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Hmmm,
Wouldn't that be Light Slate Grey/Medium Sea Grey as per early Canberra and some FR9s ?
I can find overall silver and Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey over PRU blue. Also a B+W photo with very high contrast between dark and light colours and pale (white ?) walkway markings. It also has drop tanks which would be a nice addition (also in some of the photos of silver ones - both early and late canopy styles). Wouldn't like to commit on what the colours are - could almost be nightfighter Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey or maybe your Dark Slate Grey/Medium Sea Grey ???????????? It's too blown out to tell if there's any demarcation for the undersides on the pale colour. The demarcation is low down though which is consistent with a standard 'Fighter' scheme.
Getting warmer.........
Pages 112/113 of the Crowood book - p113 has a better print of a similar shot to the high contrast one noted above and the contrast is much lower. The roundels look faded but they'd have to be very faded if the 'grey' was Medium Sea Grey. Walkways are still pale though - does anyone have any more to say about pale walkway markings on camouflaged Meteors as they are new to me ?
Sorry, run out of books with nothing definite to show for it - how about silver, early canopy, drop tanks ?
Ross
). The photo also shows aircraft with large and small upperwing type A roundels - a real mixture. It was a Flight magazine photo from a 1951 issue and is on 
RF-101C Voodoo
in Aircraft Cold War
Posted
Tim and Grant, thanks for the help so far, especially the images from Grant. I've also got the Drendel/Stevens book on order - thanks for the pointer.
Looks like the use of the silver finish and colourful tail markings in the kit, while still possible, is not yet proven for Able Mable. I'm interpreting the posted photos as overall light grey (ADC grey) unless someone tells me otherwise. The aircraft 56-066 tailcode 60066 in the kit was lost on March 21 1966 so could well have had the grey scheme and could be built with selected decals from the kit.
Are the tailcodes of the aircraft on p155 of the PACAF history readable on the originals (background a/c on the upper photo) ?
Thanks again,
Ross