rossm

You would think so but both the Warpaint and the notice below which was next to the turret in front of the Lincoln at Cosford say not. Now I didn't know it was fitted to Lancasters and I've loaned out my copy of 'Gun Turrets of the RAF' which would tell us more. However FK Mason does not mention the use of anything other than Rose or FN82 turrets as replacements for the original FN20.

Also the Lincoln - when complete it should look like the one at Cosford Ross

This document seems to be the master reference for late war RAF camouflage and markings but it's contents seem to be a mystery. There is a reproduction of "This leaf issued with A.L.No.8 October 1944" -which may be a leaflet interpreting DTD360 ? - in the book British Aviation Colours of WWII and that's all I can find about it. I'm particularly interested in the Coastal Command aspects, the "leaf" quoted above makes no mention (as far as I can see) of the standard EDSG/Sky scheme for Mosquitos and Beaufighters, implying all CC aircraft should have white undersides unless on special duties. Also the book as a whole does not appear to document the change on Mosquitos and Beaufighters from red to sky to black squadron codes. I'm assuming that all this must have come about via DTD360 ? Does anyone know if there's a copy in the National Archives ?

Thanks to this thread I've just got my cheap copy - lots of book for the money and I've already "justified" it with the information that all 229 OCU Chivenor Sabres kept the slatted wing 'cos the stalling characteristics were more forgiving for pilots new to the Sabre. The slats are open in all the 229OCU photos I have seen on the ground. Also they appear to have the high demarcation on the forward fuselage typical (according to the book) of PRU Blue undersurfaces rather than the lower one associated with silver undersurfaces. I also just checked my stash and it seems to me the Hasegawa 1/72 F-86D has a narrow slatted wing. Unfortunately the slats are moulded shut. I now have to decide whether to make an accurate (and expensive) 229OCU Sabre by adapting the Hasegawa wing to the Academy F-86E fuselage and fitting the open slats from that kit or whether just to say "sod it, who's going to notice". The test shot of the Airfix 1/72 Canadair Sabre at Yeovilton earlier this year had a 6-3 hard wing and they weren't sure they'd make a slatted version (but they might).

As far as I can tell from Paul Lucas article on Sunderland camouflage in MAM Jan 2009 official orders for Coastal aircraft with white undersides gave the engine cowlings in white stoving enamel and exhaust shrouds in white anti-glow paint. Ross

I wonder if the answer can be found in the drawing at the top of This Page as the aircraft in the Osprey book was at Gambut and therefore may have had the exhaust manifold nose shroud which may have been at a low enough temperature that the paint survived at least long enough for the photo ! Ross

Following on from the Coastal Command Halifax topic which appeared earlier I have decided to update my own Coastal Command colour and markings notes. I am therefore posting my thoughts here to get comments and try and iron out any errors or areas of contention so constructive criticism is welcome. As it's as complex topic I'm breaking it down into several sections to allow me to get my thoughts clear. First up is just the topic of squadron code letters or numerals, what colour they were will be another topic as there's a lot more information to organise. Coastal Command Squadron Code letters:- I'm not sure when Coastal Command introduced a two letter combination denoting the squadron plus an individual aircraft letter but certainly by the start of WWII. If they followed other commands then they were introduced about the end of September 1938 and the combination changed on the outbreak of war. Around November 1942 squadron code letters were removed and only an individual aircraft letter retained - Vic Flintham in Combat Codes gives the date for the original memo as 16th October 1942 while Paul Lucas in his MAM article on Sunderland markings gives different dates for memos but says the order was to come into effect on 1st November 1942. This presumably, despite a slight discrepancy in dates, explains the common photo of a Wellington VIII (A/HX379) dated 28th October 1942 with squadron code letters WN showing as a pale colour which was presumably due to them having been overpainted in white. By mid-1943 the confusion on bases where different squadrons operated the same aircraft type seems to have led to the introduction of one numeral indicating different squadrons on a base, with the lowest numbered squadron getting '1', the next '2' and so on. Occasionally this broke down when squadrons were posted - e.g. 206 became '4' when it was posted to St.Eval where 53 was '1', 224 was '2' and 547 was '3'.The '1' was usually just a verical bar. Sometimes the numerals became subscripts, notably on Halifaxes, or were different sizes as on some Liberators like Q/BZ877 (IWM photo CH 11800). Also the '1' for the lowest numbered squadron was sometimes omitted as on 179 Squadron Wellingtons at Chivenor (IWM photo FLM 1995) which have only the aircraft letter while the 407 Squadron aircraft in the backgound carry the '2' for their squadron as well. Other squadrons did carry the '1' though, including 172 Squadron when at Chivenor (photo in RAF Chivenor in the Britain in old photographs series, also IWM photo CA 143). In mid-1944 (perhaps anticipating confusion with squadrons moving around for D-Day ?) squadrons returned to two code letters plus an individual aircraft letter. Although Paul Lucas suggests (due to having found correspondence in the PRO) the strike squadrons changed earlier I have not seen anything to support this and many photos of 404 Squadron Beaufighters show the numeral '2' and are dated May 1944. By the time they have D-Day stripes 404 seem to have changed to letters 'EE'. As I said earlier, comments on the above are welcome. Once it's straight I'll move on to the colours of the letters. Eventually everything will appear on my web pages which the aforementioned Halifax post showed to be woefully out of date, Ross

The Warpaint has a photo of HR744 but the wing is across the area where the codes are. The caption says BY:O but I think O subscript 1 is more likely as the 1 is clearly visible after reading Graham's note above. I did think it was something that had been cut off by the wing but there is daylight in between if you look closely. Upper surfaces are most likely one colour but I wouldn't rule out two colours. Also 3-bladed inner and outer propellers are most likely. I'm personally more interested in 502/J as it may have served at St.Eval in my local area but I don't know the date of the photo (printed in many places) so will have to assume it fits. There is an expensive Pavla upgrade which replaces much of the nose. Having paid out for it I'm trying to avoid finding out if it still has inaccuracies.

Thanks for that Graham, I didn't realise that book went into so much detail - must look out for a copy to help update my vague web page quoted above. As for code letters or numbers the book 'Combat Codes' by Vic Flintham and Andrew Thomas states 58 Squadron at St.Davids used the numeral 1 from Dec '43 when they arrived from Holmsley S (where they also wore 1 from July 43) until August 44. HR744 1-O is quoted as an example for Holmsley S. Air Britain give HR744 as only serving with 58 Squadron and being struck off charge on 23/11/44. Ross

For the seats try Hannants Website For references Su-15 Photo Website Also Airliners.net has some good photos Ross

Air Britain Stirling File pages 69 and 71. I'm sure I've seen some of Warwicks including page 165 of the Profile on it and the IWM Photo collection online here Sorry to be brief, in a rush, Ross

There's a photo in Osprey Combat Aircraft Vol.9 Mosquito Fighter/Fighter-Bomber Squadrons of WWII but it's cropped in too close to tell. However it is credited to Stephen M Fochuk and if you google him you'll find lots of links - maybe you can contact him and ask if he has a wider view.

I couldn't find anything in my references on this topic so I can only suggest posting on the Allied & Soviet forum on 12 o'clock high. There are many detailed queries like this posted there and often they will get answered.

Nice photos, did you get any of the Meteor TT20 they have - maybe in the background of your first piccie ? Ross

Neither DWI nor MkVIII are covered in my copy of the Aviation news plans. There is a side view in the Warpaint. Ross

I can send you GRU serials (some with codes) from the Air Britain/Sturtivant book Flying Training and Support Units of the RAF. The F9/37 listed is L7999, the Taurus one, I wonder if it ever carried the HP code ? There's a similar, but subtly different, list in Alan Lake's Flying Units of the RAF. There are also plans - with 3 cross-sections - in Aircraft of the Fighting Powers Vol.5 I've just found your email in my address book so I'll send the plans over the weekend, Cheers, Ross

Hi Jerry, Comparing my Magna 1/72 F9/37 with an Airfix Beaufighter suggests you could do worse than starting with cutting up a Beaufighter fuselage. The wings don't look too difficult. Let me know if you would like a copy of the plans from the Magna kit, do you plan to finish it as with the GRU at Exeter ? Cheers, Ross

I've probably got a spare set, PM me and I'll look when I get home, Ross

I've got the AB book at home - never thought to look at the profiles, just scanned the photos and only Coastal ones then. I'll check, or maybe you can, if the 311 example went through SAL ? Obviously the Canadian one is unlikely to have done so. My current puzzle, which I hope to solve with lead foil, is making the ammo feed for the nose gun and then to make and fit the empty cartridge collecting tray without damaging the transparency it needs to be mounted on. The Pavla chin fairing is also not a straightforward thing to fit, Ross

I've yet to see a photo of a UK based GRIII or V with a US rear turret. That's not to say they didn't exist but there was a modification program for all Liberators delivered to be converted to Coastal Command standards by Scottish Aviation in Prestwick. That suggests they would all have been the same on the squadrons, Ross

Aircraft of the Fighting Powers vol2 by Owen Thetford has plans of the Liberator I. You may be able to make one of these in 1/72 with the help of the Magna civil Liberator conversion and some elbow grease!?!?!? Ross

There's one (Blue Danube?) in the Mach2 Valiant kit, Ross

Modeldecal sheet 53 has letters the right size (48 inches in 1/72 = 36 inches in 1/48) but no numbers. Aviaeology, a Canadian company, makes a sheet of 1/48 36 inch letters and numbers in 'dark grey' which is not far off Medium Sea grey but it's out of print at the moment. PM me if you want J,S,B from a Modeldecal sheet, a scalpel should be able to turn B into 5 with a bit of luck, Ross

I haven't checked mine against plans but the mouldings (apart from the transparencies) are pretty good. It would benefit from resin engines (I have some from DB) as the vacform process does not produce smaller details well. The only place I know to get an accurate rear turret transparency is the Falcon Clear Vax set for the Sunderland as some Marks of that had the same turret. It was a distinctly different turret from the Lancaster one. Ross

There is a B+W photo of the port side of this aircraft in Camera Above the Clouds Vol1 (a selection of pictures taken by Charles E Brown - I suspect the colour one is also his as one is listed in the Appendix to Vol3 but it does not appear in the books). The roundel on the upper port wing is almost indistinguisahble from the rest of the wing as there is a slight sheen to all of it with some small random patches of a darker, matter colour and signs of scuffing and staining. The roundel on the starboard wing is visible for about 2/3rds of the chord, possibly slightly less sheen than the wing surface. One thing to beware of when judging sheen - it looks like a cloudy day and if there was any rain about this would have an effect, although whether it would be different for different surface textures I wouldn't like to say.