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About Otakar

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    VMFA-235 VMGR-234 HMLA-776 MarForPac SNCOIC restorations Quan.VA
  • Birthday 04/12/1959

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    Chicago area IL, USA
  • Interests
    USMC, Czech aviation & armor, 1920-2005

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  1. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    As just mentioned. That was a local mix for that period of time. The RAL was not yet used in Czechoslovakia, or I am not even sure if even established at that time. The MNO 2036 smalt 02 was a Czech standard supposed to represent the RLM 02. I am POSITIVE that the post war years in Czechoslovakia, pigment was not a priority or easy to get for that matter. so "close" was good enough. Look at the restored aircraft in the Museum in Prague. Those were done many many years after, most likely in the 60s-80s and none of them are right because of lack of correct paint. What do you think it was like in 1946-49? I am having the exact same problem building my Avia CS-99 aircraft EV-7 (Bf-109G-12, mid production G-6 conversion) It could be anything from silver to RLM 75. I finally decided on a color by Peewit, C-4610 https://peewit.wixsite.com/masky/autenticke-odstiny which is something in between RLM 63 and RLM 76. If you take a look on the website chip, the color looks nothing like the paint color actually is. The actual paint is actually closer looking to the two chips directly above and below the chip for C-4610 Nothing in the RLM or RAL or FS standard even close but an actual documented color used on Czech training and liaison aircraft such as the Czech built Bu-181 and Yak-11 and others. All I can say about the color to describe it is that it is a very light version of RLM 63 and extremely light version of RLM 02. What is known is that the single seat S-99 aircraft were painted in "Steel Gray" something like RLM 75 but it is "thought" that the dual seat CS-99 were silver. Take a look at the pictures and see what you think. It is however "known" that all the later versions of the CS-99 made from the G-10 and all the CS-199 were actually silver. I attempted to photograph my color chips of that paint under numerous lighting conditions and just can not get he correct color representation in a photo. No matter what the lighting. There are just some colors that present that problem.
  2. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    The idea of the pictures was that it is a color that is close and that out of as many pictures you look at of the same aircraft, they all look a different color. Of course it is not RLM-02, that aircraft was refinished some years ago and when the Czechs originally painted it after the war, it was only something close to RLM-02. Paint that was left over from the war. The original color on the S-199 and the color used for the restoration also were not exact. I am not sure that the color used was even a match to 6013 or just some local mix. It may even be FS14255 or FS14257. Who really knows. Your chip comparison is what I also get between my RAL deck and the Hikoki chip. The Czechs mixed paint in batches that were done by eye from mostly leftover paint from the war. There were numerous variations on the S-199 ranging from (approximately) from RLM-63 to RLM-82. Once again, the idea was to compare a similar color to RLM 02, on a single subject, on a bunch of pictures to show that photographs are not a good reference for determining a true color. Once again, I thought that this was a discussion comparing RLM 02 to known photographs. I'm just saying and my point is, that it should not be done. No matter what the color is. Not even black or white. How many people thought for years that the Lockheed U-2 in which Powers was shot down in over the USSR was black when in fact it was Semi Gloss Sea Blue FS25042.
  3. At one time I had four of these kits in my stash. Since than I got rid of them all on eBay. It is SUPER inaccurate in shape. The only thing it would be good for is to kitbash with the Zvezda La-5FN. I actually built one of these to about 95% and just stopped because I was so disgusted with the kit. About the only thing on the kit that has any semblance of accuracy is the wing and nose. Pretty much aft of the main wing spar on the fuselage and tail is shear fantasy. That is no exaggeration. This kit is not worth building in any sense of the project.
  4. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    I also have the B.A.C. WWII book and agree with the Slate Gray being a bit darker (and also has a bit more blue in it) than the RLM 02 but Sea Gray dark or medium have nothing in common to Slate Gray or RLM 02. The Sea Gray are just flat-out plain gray colors and RLM 02 and Slate gray have a green hue to them.
  5. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    I just dug out my Iliad Design and Agama chips and they also agree with the Monogram and Hikoki chips for the RLM02. It is a very dark color.
  6. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    The question is; Is the picture a true representation of the actual model color. My Bu-181 pictures look nothing like the color of the actual model. The lower picture is relatively close but still not green enough.
  7. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    Take a look at the same aircraft in this picture. The illumination should be identical to the picture in the previous post. Is it the same color? Da!!!!! All the same aircraft. Take a look at the last picture and tell me what color the propeller is. Can you tell it's black or is it the same color as the aircraft? I believe it has already been mentioned by someone her in a previous post that RLM 02 to RAL cross-reference would be RLM 02 falls between RAL 7002 and 7003. If I was mixing it I would mix 2 parts 7003 and 1 part 7002 to get RLM 02. If you wish an FS595 comparison than somewhere in between 16165 and 24201 but closer to 16165 in tint but a bit lighter.
  8. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    In this particular picture, this looks about right considering it is in bright sunlight. However you can find virtually a hundred pictures of the same aircraft and the tint will look different. Once again, we are talking pictures. as can be viewed on your monitor. If you print any of these pictures the color will once again change.
  9. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    That is correct. There is a neutral 'zero" to the human eye. If a color is darker than zero than the larger the surface the darker it looks. if it is lighter than zero than the larger the surface the lighter the color is. The German dark green/browns are a perfect example. When you look at them side by side on small surfaces you cant even see a difference. If you see them side by side on large surfaces the differences are obvious. But you also have the photographic effect. If you take a look at the picture in post #2, it looks nothing like RLM 02 OR 63. It looks like L40/42 or maybe 65. Take a look at my Zlin C-6 (Bu-181) on two different backgrounds. The color looks completely different but neither looks like the color it really is. The color it actually is, is a Czech version of RLM 63 but a smidge lighter. RLM 63 is a bit lighter and a bit more gray than RLM 02. In the photo, it looks nothing like it. The lower bottle in post #24 looks like the right color "in the photo" but obviously that will change and the color will look different once dry and photographed on a chip. This is the very old, short run MPM kit which is more accurate Shape wise than the Special hobby kit. Visually as far as pictures go, this is about right. picture three AK2002. The question is, what will it look like in real life. But the picture looks good maybe it could be a tad more green/yellow than it is but it is very close.
  10. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    Most likely the only reliable documentation on German paints and regulation will come out of the Czech republic. Since German aircraft were built there during the entire war and not everything was destroyed. Besides the fact that there was a lot of paint stock left over after the war and was used on the Czech aircraft after the war. Most likely for a couple of years. Get the Hikoki Paint chips and match your colors to those. At least you will have a base to work with.
  11. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    As Mentioned, do not look at old photos they are 100% unreliable. There are enough subjects around the world to be used while making chips. Use the chips do not use photos. Photos (even modern ones) will never show you the same color as seen by the naked eye. I have worked in a museum long enough to testify to that. But if it looks right to you, go with it. No one will ever change your mind once you have made it up. Chips in hand and your own eye are the only real factors. I have studied colors for forty years since I worked in an aircraft paint shop and still find deviations to this day. Only when I joined a museum staff in 2001 did I see all the actual deviations on real WWII aircraft. They are many and blatant.
  12. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    EXACTLY. Look at a chip and if it looks right, use that color.
  13. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    Normally colors should be analyzed under full spectrum = 6500K but daylight is normally considered 5500K. Although it can very a bit up or down by a couple of hundred. It is hard to filter up but it is easy to filter down. So, to go from 2856 to 5500K-6500K is rather silly. There would have been variations in paint colors back than, since there are variations even today and our technology to color-match and mix paint is much more advanced. So if you use a base starting point and get visually close, you will be good. RLM 81 and RLM 84 also have three color variations. Just not on this chart.
  14. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    That is an issue, these affects ARE NOT consistent between photos. They can even be affected by the time of year they were taken and how far north or south of the equator they were taken. This will have a tremendous affect on the amount of UV absorbed and/or reflected by any different paint. Also the age of paint on a surface will affect the sheen which will also have a great affect. Working on aircraft in the military and running a paint shop for quite a few years, I had aircraft that looked camouflaged but were painted only one single color. Or in some cases on UH-1N birds I had three colors and it looked like I had ten after doing touchups and repairs. There are also many other photographic factors to take into consideration. While the picture is being taken, the color of surface the subject is standing on, the color of background. Was the original film overexposed or underexposed and was the picture adjusted during printing or actual film development. This common practice with film. What brand and lot number was the film and or paper. Is the picture you are looking at a reproduction of a reproduction. How properly was the photograph fixed during development. This is a huge factor which will affect color with age of picture. When film and print were developed, what was the chemical temperature and were adjustments made to temperature by altering development time. All of these will affect actual color printed on photo. I am quite sure that I have missed a few photographic factors. Now lets talk paint. Different base paints will reflect light differently. Epoxy, Urethane, Oil Enamel, Alkyd Enamel Nitrate lacquer, Butyrate Lacquer, Acrylic. During WWII Epoxy would not come into play but all the others would. Each reflects UV WAY differently. This will cause the human eye and photographic film and also type of film, completely differently. I am quite sure that I have missed some factors.
  15. Otakar

    Best RLM 02?

    I did a lot of study of colors and tints in photographic evidence. Unfortunately with certain tints photographs can be totally off. When I ran the restoration department for the Museum in Quantico VA. This was blatantly evident. Using photographs to match colors works in some cases and not in others. Some pigments reflect more UV than other pigments and different films and also modern sensors pick up UV quite differently. I have chips that are visually greenish in tint and look either completely gray or even blue in pictures. In short, do not use photographs of any stile or age to determine colors. You are headed for disaster and disappointment if you do. Use only well researched color chips. I even took one of the Hikoki color charts I have and over-sprayed it with flat clear just so I can have a comparison. You would be surprised how different one color can look in gloss and flat sheens. The worst part in all of this is that even the special sensors used for color matching in paint manufacture can't pick up certain reflective tints. I have experienced this first hand. In short, don't use photos, use color chips along with paint regulation documentation. And yes, RLM 02 is darker than RLM 63 but the two are often mistaken for each other and reversed unintentionally. You can even throw RLM 11 into this mix which is still in the same tint but darker yet. Get two of the Hikoki chip guides and overspray one with clear flat or just overspray half of each chip on a single guide and go by that. You won't go wrong. RLM 02 along with most if not all of the RLM colors have no direct match with the FS595 guide and very few in the RAL guide. RAL 7003 is close but not the same. 7003 is more gray and RLM 02 is more yellow. FS-#6165 is close also but darker. Close, yes, same, no.
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