AndyL

Interesting as I've got a photograph of a 501 Squadron Hurricane lost in June 1940 showing what looks to be a red, white and blue spinner.

I'm always keen to see a Defiant build, even more so a 141 Squadron machine. The back story is that the loss of this aircraft, and the lives of Ian Donald and Arthur Hamilton is part of the day in the Battle of Britain now referred to as 'The Slaughter of the Innocents', when 141 on their first and only daylight engagement with the Luftwaffe resulted in the loss of four pilots and six air gunners. Ian Donald was one of 141's flight commanders, and Arthur Hamilton was a squadron gunnery leader; the latter baled out off Dover and drowned, while Ian Donald died in a vain attempt to get his Defiant back to Hawkinge. He could no longer keep the damaged aircraft airborne, and it crashed at Elms Vale Road, just outside Dover. Tragically, the 19th of July should have been Arthur Hamilton's wedding day, and their first thing the family knew of him being killed was when somebody from R.A.F. Hawkinge contacted the family to ask them where they wanted to have him buried. Part of my work for the history of the Defiant I am currently finishing for Pen and Sword was to try and come up with the definitive version of the events of that day, and source images of all ten airmen lost that day. The hardest to find was one of Ian Donald, but last year I was passed a snap of him vis the family of William Richardson, who was the commanding officer of 141. The snap turned out to be a significant one, for it was taken on the morning of July 19th to celebrate the fact it was William Richardson's birthday. The photo shows William, flanked by his flight commanders Malcolm Louden and Ian Donald, and it's a sobering thought that just hours after it was taken, Ian was dead, Malcolm Louden was on hospital with arm and shoulder injuries, and burns after almost getting his Defiant back to Hawkinge; he hits a tree and crashed into a hedge and had to be pulled from the wreckage by a farmer. As for William Richardson, he was hauled up at Fighter Command H.Q. that evening, and would eventually lose his command of 141 some six weeks later. Anyway, keep up the great work, I will be watching with interest.

From the report issued by Headquarters, No 1 Group, Intelligence. "F/Lt Gillies - Red 1; F/O Smith Red 2; P/O Crooks Red 3. P/O Brown Yellow 1; Sgt Cameron Yellow 2; P/O King Yellow 3. P/O Brown force landed at Le Zoute and is returning from Dunkirk to England by boat today or tomorrow. P/O King - Yellow 3 in attempting to return to this country got lost, mistook Calais for Margate and landed there. He returned in his own aircraft the same evening. Red 1 fired 2663 rounds, Red 2 2500, Red 3 2667 and Yellow 2 1006. Both Red 2 and Yellow 3 suffered one bullet strike apiece. Cine guns were fitted but not used. The composite squadron spotted a formation of seven Ju 87's in line astern and engaged. One Ju 87 fired red parachute flares which was a signal for fighter assistance which appeared in the form of 30 Me 109's which attacked our fighters. The engagement developed into a series of individual combats. Red 1 engaged a Ju 87 from which tracer was observed from twin rear guns. This tracer ceased after some seconds fire after which the enemy went into a steep dive with smoke coming from it, and disappeared down to the ground. Our a/c next engaged a Me 109 and as the Spitfire ran out of ammunition the enemy went into a dive. The result was not reserved. Red 2 attacked a Ju 87 and observed tracer going into the enemy aircraft between the rear turret and the pilot. The enemy went down in a dive. Red 2 broke off his attack and attacked three other Ju 87's. He then sighted a Ju 88 which he attacked, the enemy turning steeply, only receiving two short deflection bursts. The top rear gunner of the Ju 88 was firing two guns with tracer. Red 3 engaged three Ju 87's, one of which was seen to crash in flames, and a second was last seen to crash in flames, and a second was last seen in a shallow dive with petrol vapour streaming behind. Report on Yellow 1 is not yet to hand, but P/O Kay confirms that he saw P/O Brown bring down a Ju 87 in flames. Yellow 2 engaged a Ju 87 at 1,000 feet, attacking from astern and after his fourth burst of fire the enemy aircraft crashed. He then attacked two more Ju 87's, firing short bursts, but no result was observed. Our aircraft received fire from twin guns using tracer from the top turret of the enemy aircraft. Yellow 3 got in a short burst on a Ju 87 with no apparent effect. He then developed deflection attack, still with no effect. Then he noticed his reflector sight was inclined to the left . He made one more burst before his ammunition was expended. He received no return fire from the enemy rear gunner who had fired during the first attack. From this he assumed the rear gunner had been out of action. He then followed the E/A inland and made repeated dives on it hoping to make it crash. He drove the enemy down to approximately 20 feet from the ground. At this time, having received Red 1's call to rendezvous over Rotterdam, he left the enemy aircraft and started looking for Rotterdam. Enemy casualties: 5 Ju 87's conclusive, 5 Ju 87's inconclusive, 2 Me 109's inconclusive."

Paul, I've got quite a bit a few 141 Squadron photos covering their time on Blenheims, and later on Defiants, as I'm writing the history of the Defiant for Pen and Sword. As to the speed fairing, technically it could be in either position when parked, as it could be manually lowered via a lever in the turret. The system was operated by compressed air. As a matter of interest, I can check my photos to see if I have any of your father. Regards Andy

Feel free to re post them Tony. My post was in good humour

Not a problem, comment was very tongue in cheek

Nice 85 Squadron Havoc photos Tony. Wonder where they came from

I could always ask Jeram's son for you as I had some contact with him a couple of years ago.

N3328 was being ferried to Walney Island to go on strength with 10 Air Gunnery School. I have a copy of the F1180 Accident Card for N3328 if you'd like a copy.

I have the set of 264 Squadron images by Life for my Defiant book, and there are some Hurricanes lurking in the background, plus the set confirms it's an established airfield.

May be part of the set by Life Magazine, supposedly taken at Martlesham Heath.

I used to do all the photographic copy work for Dilip, and believe me, you'd be amazed at what has not been published yet...

Dilip has the 19 Squadron tome coming out this year, and it features 300 photos, many via the families of ex 19 Squadron pilots.

Hi Steve, Good to see you're back in the saddle ref the Defiant. I recently paid a visit to Parkstone Cemetery where your Uncle Harold is buried, and paid my respects. I had a go at tracing his widow, as they had a house not far from the golf club, but no joy. I have found the crash site of his Defiant near Marlow, and will be heading out there in the spring to take some photos. Also, I now have all the documentation from the casualty file which gives a bit more information regarding their loss; I'm in no doubt they were shot down by a target they were investigating. I will send you the file - not much in there but interesting nonetheless. Regards, Andy

I'm currently writing the history of the Defiant for Pen and Sword and I'd like to have a chat with you ref your relation. I should have the Bromley casualty file if you're interested. You can drop me a line at [email protected] Cheers, Andy

Here's an example of the variance of aircraft code letters, covering 609 Squadron on 13th August 1940. A Flight, Red Section: PR-J, H and E. A Flight, Yellow Section: PR-K, G, and one Spitfire without a code letter. B Flight, Blue Section: PR-S, O, and M. B Flight, Green Section: PR-N, M* and L. * 609 had two Spitfires with the letter M, but the one in B Flight was known as ' Mitzi'. The spare Spitfire was PR-A. Also 253 Squadron stopped allocating the letter A to their Hurricanes as they suffered a run of losing aircraft carrying A, and decided it was an unlucky letter.

L2012 was UP-V, confirmed by Chris Cooper-Slipper, son of Tom.

L2012 was UP-V.

A really lovely build, that's an excellent job. If you'd like a copy of the F1180 Accident Card for this Defiant, let me know.

Interesting, as all my images show interior green throughout.

A really fine set of builds, but if I may, the Defiant isn't a Battle of Britain aircraft, as depicts one from 255 Squadron which were formed in November 1940. But I don't want to detract from your fine work, they are really very well done.

If you're looking at friendly fire, you only have to examine some of the camera gun footage held by the IWM and spot the close calls. However, back to the OP, there was always the recurring story regarding the deliberate shooting down of a fellow Spitfire pilot by a fellow squadron member during the Battle of Britain. Maybe just a story, but if true, not a pleasant one.

The speed fairing behind the turret could be in either the up or down position. While it was operated by a set of cams connected to a compressed air system, the air gunner had the ability to manually lower or raise it by using the lever to the right of the turret control stick.

Going through my 141 Squadron material, here are three references to exhausts as noted in the log book of Squadron Leader Ted Wolfe DFC. 16.11.40. Defiant N1564. Trials of new fishtail exhaust. No glare at all and less noise. Very successful. 21.11.40. Defiant N1564. Further trials of 3 port fishtail exhaust. Excellent. 8.11.40. Defiant N1799. New night stub exhausts much too noisy.

Great to see progress, and that you've started building. I'm following this with interest as I'm currently writing the history of the Defiant for Pen & Sword, and this Defiant was 141 Squadron's first Defiant fatal crash of the war. I've attached the casualty communication for this loss for reference. As to the crew, I drew a blank trying to find Wightmans family, but I have been given a couple of leads to the Keene family, now in Kent apparently. Keep up the good work, and keep us posted if you get to the crash site. https://www.flickr.com/photos/157796863@N06/shares/SLr4w8