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Dana Bell

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Posts posted by Dana Bell

    Humbrol interior green for Airfix B-17G

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi folks,

     

    There's a great deal of confusion surrounding American interior colors - this is just a note of clarification...

     

    Zinc chromate primer is a cool, semi-transluscent yellow; it's a range of colors, depending on how the components were mixed and what vehicle they were mixed in.

     

    Aluminized zinc chromate is zinc chromate primer with ground aluminum primer added.  The first of the green zinc chromates, it was a range of bright "candy apple" greens depending on the original primer color and the amount/composition of the aluminum added

     

    Yellow Green was the second green zinc chromate; similar formula to aluminized zinc chromate, but with black added.  Great variation in color depending on the original colors and the type/volume of black added.

     

    Interior Green was "invented" in late 1942 and standardized in May 1943.  The only green zinc chromate that was expected to match a color card, this was a mix of zinc chromate primer and black.  Despite the standardization, the color showed some variation in practice.

     

    Bronze Green was usually an enamel, not based on zinc chromate.  It usually had an oily appearance.

     

    Dull Dark Green came in two versions, neither based on zinc chromate.  Generally produced as a lacquer, it had a flat or semi-flat finish

     

    Medium Green was a camouflage color often seen on the leading and trailing edges of flying surfaces.  In November 1944 it was approved as a cockpit and anti-glare color, though there is limited evidence of the extent of its  use.

     

    In Seattle, Boeing had problems with a paint shop; the AAF granted an exemption from painting interior surfaces unless an anti-glare color was needed.  Photos of surviving B-17s often show several green paints used in the same cockpits.  Douglas skipped the instructions and painted many of its B-17 cockpits Interior Green, receiving permission after the fact.  I've no data on Vega's cockpits.

     

    I'd love to get this all pinned down one day, but contemporary evidence (Wright Field/contractor correspondence) is hard to find.  

     

    Good luck with the model!

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 6
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    Did F4U Corsairs Have Puttied Leading Wing Edges?

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi Chris,

     

    Yes, initially they were puttied.  Later testing showed that the new putty increased the speed by several mph.  However, the wing would flex in flight and squeeze the putty out of seams creating ridges instead of smoothness; the expanded putty cost more in speed than the smoothed putty saved and the putty was abandoned altogether.  While I've got the report, I'm not sure where I have the info on deleting the putty, but it certainly happened during WWII.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 9
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    US interwar colours of insides

    in Aircraft Interwar

    Posted

    I hadn't realized this thread went back so far!  I found some new information at the Archives just before the Covid shutdown a couple of years back -- an Army unit requested permission to paint the interior of fabric surfaces with aluminized dope or enamel.  The request noted that several Navy squadrons had been doing this to prevent oil and dirt from discoloring the cockpit interiors and make things look more professional.  Wright Field granted permission.

     

    This couldn't have been a widespread practice -- at least I've never found any photo of an Army or Navy aircraft with the fabric painted aluminum inside.  Still, it makes for an interesting possibility, and after my "definitive" note of six years ago I thought the revised infromatino needed sharing...

     

    Cheers,

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 3
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    A10 Thunderbolt Tamiya 1:48 . Grey Ghosts Haunting me!

    in Work in Progress - Aircraft

    Posted · Edited by Dana Bell

    Looks like you're off to a great start.  Before you get too far, I'd recommend filing off the trailing edge flap guides.  They were on only the six preproduction aircraft and the first four production aircraft - none of which wore the camouflage you want to use.   You may also want to replace the ECM pods.  If you want to know more about other details, ask here when you've chosen a scheme - there are plenty of folks here who will be better versed than I on the more modern A-10s.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 1
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    "Pan Am" HU-16 in Vietnam?

    in Aircraft Cold War

    Posted

    I hadn't noticed this topic when it was active last year; I suspect the model is completed already, but on the off chance that it isn't...

     

    The scheme is a standard MAC Air Rescue and Recovery Service scheme that seems to be descended from the post-war OA-10 Catalina colors.  There's a schematic on page D-62 of most 1960s and '70s editions of TO 1-1-4 listing the colors as blue 15042 over gray 36622.  The colors might have been matched to 595a (NOT 595b), but the blue might have been the original ANA paints - Some Navy factory drawings continued to call for ANA colors into the mid-1960s (despite the government's introduction of FS 595.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 2

    Corsair F.Mk1

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    I can confirm that for Mk.Is - enough short wingtips were produced as kits to retrofit to these aircraft, which were all delivered with US Navy wings.  Later, enough short-short wingtips were produced to cover survivors among these aircraft, though I've no idea how many short-short tips were installed in Mark Is.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 1
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    ‘Daphne C’ 1/32 “Birdcage” Corsair - completed

    in Work in Progress - Aircraft

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Dansk said:

    Ok so as see it, if im understanding all the above correctly 

    then Ideally i should redo the cockpit dark dull green.

     

     @Dana Bell when you say “salmon ‘over’ untinted yellow zc”

    do you mean it was painted over the top of untinted yellow zc or it was used alone on top of metal as a priority ‘over’ yellow zc (know what i mean?)

    if it was over the top of untinted yellow zc why two coats? that seems odd.

     

    (actually when i read some of those thread links above i get confused some say zc over salmon some say under..) argh…

     

    so if i understand correctly (and i might not)

    tail wheel bay and doors = salmon chipped to yellow zc and metal?

    main wheel doors and bays underside colour chippped to salmon and yellow zc and metal?

    exterior chipped to salmon and yellow zc and metal?

    what about engine cowlings?

     

     

    Hi again Paul,

     

    Sorry if I confused things for you.  The following notes apply to Birdcage Corsairs only - there were additional variations on later models.

     

    The aircraft was expected to have two coats of primer over most assemblies.  The first coat was untinted (yellow) zinc chromate; the second coat was to be tinted to ensure that there were no "holiday" areas that received only one coat.  As such, there should be "salmon" nearly everywhere.

     

    The cockpit also needed a coat of darker paint to reduce reflections on instrument faces and windows.  Early on this was Dull Dark Green.

     

    The inside of the engine cowl also needed an additional finish coat to reduce the posibilities of flash fires.  This was usually the same Light Gray camouflage lacquer used on Corsair undersurfaces.

     

    When BuAer decided to step away from "Salmon" and Dull Dark Green, Vought got a special waiver on the two coats of primer.  The first coat was still untinted (yellow) zinc chromate.  If the underlying metal was Alclad (aluminum alloy coated with pure aluminum) no second coat was needed.  If the underlying metal was aluminum alloy, the first coat of untinted zinc chromate was stamped "1st COAT" in black ink; a second coat of untinted zinch chromate was then applied.  Since the primer was transluscent, the black stamped notice would appear green under the second coat.

     

    With the Navy dropping Dull Dark Green, the cockpit still needed to be darker.  BuAer recommended Interior Green, but another waiver allowed Vought to used that bright aluminized zinc chromate.  Note that some subassemblies were delivered in Dull Dark Green before being introduced to the bright green cockpit.

     

    Instrument panels and side consoles were Instrument Black, a satin finish.

     

    Wheel wells were nearly always painted in the underside camouflage color, thought there were a handful of exceptions.

     

    There was still plenty of Light Gray in stock, so that paint was still used inside cowlings into production of the -1As.

     

    Remember that US Corsairs used dope on fabric (all the way to the wing tip edges on wings) and lacquer on aluminum.  The two paints were spec'd to the same color charts, but the paints rarely matched when fresh, and certainly never matched as they weathered.

     

    A final note on wear over the wing roots - the Birdcage Corsair leading edges were smoothed, just like we expect on P-51 Mustangs.  This was then overpainted with two coats of primer (see above) and two coats of camouflage lacquer.  As boots wore though the camouflage, the primer came off too - you would see the white putty rather than the primer of unpainted aluminum.

     

    Ta ta for now - keep up the great work!

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 5
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    ‘Daphne C’ 1/32 “Birdcage” Corsair - completed

    in Work in Progress - Aircraft

    Posted

    Hi Paul,

     

    Two notes on color:

     

    The early primer coat would have been "salmon" over untinted (yellow) zinc chromate, so you wouldn't find Yellow Green or Interior Green in the wheel wells.

     

    The cockpit color for Vought's Birdcage Corsairs originally was Dull Dark Green, not black as sometimes listed.  In spring 1943 BuAer advised Vought to finish up with their stocks of Dull Dark Green and switch to a color that would eventually be known as Interior Green.  Vought responded that they had stocks of aluminized zinc chromate and asked permisssion to use up those stocks too.  BuAer agreed, and it appears that all Vought Birdcages were delivered in Dull Dark Green or aluminized zinc chromate.  The switch to Interior Green seems to have first come with the F4U-1A.

     

    Aluminized zinc chromate was a bright candy-apple green.  With the addition of black pigment it became a cockpit color called Yellow Green (not used in Corsairs).  With out the aluminum paste (just zinc chromate and black) it became our familiar Interior Green in 1943.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 1
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    Curtiss SOC-3 Seagull - Hasegawa 1/72

    in Work in Progress - Aircraft

    Posted

    Hi Rod,

     

    Beautiful models - the errors for the color schemes seem to be Hasegawa's not yours.  I normally wouldn't comment on the errors, but since you've mentioned that you're going to attempt a repaint, the following notes might be useful.  These notes apply to the SOC-3 only; the SOC-1 and -2 had different painting instructions.

     

    The wing colors here are VERY unusual because the aircraft had what was at that time known as a composite wing: the forward part of the wing was aluminum skinned, while the after part of the wing was fabric covered.  Before the SOC-3 went into production the Navy decided to wrap the upper surface Orange Yellow around to the first 5% of the undersurface.  That meant that the painters would have painted Orange Yellow lacquer on the first 5% of underside leading edge, aluminum lacquer on the rest of the underside aluminum skin, and aluminum dope on the fabric.  The entire leading edge slat system, top and bottom, would have been Orange Yellow.  This was too much painting for the Fleet's preferences, so BuAer ordered all SOC-3s delivered with the entire aluminum-skinned leading edge (top and bottom) painted with aluminum lacquer, the upper surface fabric painted with Orange Yellow dope, and the leading edge slats (top and bottom) with Orange Yellow lacquer.  It's a unique scheme, but photos show both your aircraft painted this way.  If you choose to paint your models in this previously undocumented scheme, folks are bound to tell you that you're wrong, but you won't be.

     

    In the Pacific SOC-3s (and earlier Seagulls) received this same scheme during overhauls, but in the Atlantic (where New York was based) the depot chose to repaint the entire aluminum leading edge - top and bottom - Orange Yellow.  Eventually Atlantic and Pacific Seagulls were exchanged following overhauls, with both commands complaining that the other side got it wrong.  BuAer was foced to step in again and decided (this time) that painting the entire aluminum-skinned leading edge Orange Yellow made more sense, so both aircraft would eventually been repainted this way, though they were probably transferred to other ships by that time.

     

    Still, you've got choices.

     

    One final word - the yellow unit tail color would have been Lemon Yellow, a lighter, cooler yellow than the Orange Yellow used on the wings.

     

    Sorry for all the extra problems, but I hope this is more of a help than a complaint - those are both beautiful Seagull models!

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 3

    1/18 Curtiss P40C

    in Work in Progress - Aircraft

    Posted

    Hi Peter,

     

    I hadn't noticed this thread until Roger tagged me - I'm in awe of your build, a truly wonderful work of the engineering arts!

     

    I'm sorry to say that MD-11 won't work for you - it's the XP-40, the Allison-engined P-36, easily recognized by the tail wheel doors.  The MD designator was used by the Materiel Division at Wright Field.

     

    Duxford's beautiful restroration does show a P-40C in the markings of an un-suffixed P-40.  Photos of the original aircraft have been misidentified since the mid-1960s, when the aircraft was described as a P-40C in a magazine article.  The aircraft was assigned to the 10th Air Base Squadron at Chanute.  The unit aircraft were used for mechanics' ground instruction, so it's not certain 10AB-160 ever flew with those markings.

     

    Keep up the good work - I look forward to seeing how this one turns out!

     

    Cheers,

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 5

    Corsair II/III ventral window question

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    This took longer to unravel than I had expected, but I've written up the page on the ventral window.  Minus the photos and captions, here's the first draft:

     

        Deep in the Dash-1 Corsair’s cockpit, hidden between the pilot’s feet, the bombing window was a vestige of prewar Navy planning.  In a simple version of the strategy, the Fleet’s fighters would sweep enemy fighters from the sky, before swooping down to drop fragmentation bombs on an enemy’s antiaircraft gunners.  American torpedo planes and bombers could then attack pending the arrival the Battle Force with its decisive firepower.  The bombing window gave Navy fighters a quick glance at the enemy while selecting the next victim.
        The trapezoidal plexiglass window was just over two feet long and (at the front) two feet wide –  more than enough for a good view if the pilot’s eyes weren’t so far away and the floor wasn’t cluttered with other structures.  The addition of a centerline fuel tank or bomb would further reduce visibility, and, with revisions to the Navy’s planned tactics, by May 1943 BuAer decided the window’s four pounds of weight could be better used elsewhere.  That December the Bureau issued instructions replacing the window with a sheet aluminum door, though the change would not appear on Vought and Goodyear production lines until June 1944.  (By that time the Navy was already closing Brewster’s Corsair plant, so the F3A appears to have carried the window through the end of production.)  The window replacement was not expected to be retroactive, unless interested service activities had the tools, materials, and time (approximately seven man hours) to make the substitution.
        BuAer’s description of a “door” was somewhat misleading – “hatch” would have been a more accurate description.  The change came with no hinges or latches; instead the Alclad cover was held in place by 64 Phillips-head screws.  Access was possible, just not easy!
     

    Tomorrow I'll try to get the promised drawings off to those who requested them.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 4
    • Thanks 5

    Conflicting colour scheme of the F4F

    in Aircraft WWII

    Posted

    Hi Troy,

     

    I couldn't see either of the two photos you asked about - lately Chrome has decided to block a number of images for some unknown reason.  (If you can attach them to a PM I'll be happy to take a quick look.)

     

    I suspect your images show some varied interpretations of the Gull Grays.  Before the paint was purchased directly from paint suppliers, units mixed their own.  Light Gull Gray was supposed to be 2 parts of leftover Light Gray camouflage paint and 1 part white (which also proves that Light Gull Gray was expected to be lighter than Light Gray).  Dark Gull Gray was to be 10 parts of leftover Light Gray and 1 part black.  As with any mixing problems, a little difference in quantities, or a little difference in original qualities could make a big difference in final results.

     

    The Navy's big concern with the ASW schemes was sun glint. In the South Atlantic, where the skies were generally bright, sunlight reflecting off the aircraft's sides could defeat the camouflage, so Light Gull Gray sides darkened the aircraft slightly.  In an area that was generally cloudy such as the North Atlantic, there was less chance of lateral reflection, so white sides reduced any darker shadows.  Neither scheme was to be used where enemy aircraft operated, a lesson unlearned over the Bay of Biscay.  So the choice of scheme depended more on the expected weather than the tpe of aircraft.

     

    Cheers,

     

     

    Dana

    • Like 2
    • Thanks 3
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