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Codger

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Posts posted by Codger

  1. Significant detail explained...

    You just saw the cowl trim created and now you see how it all comes together. In the fifth photo here you saw the cowl split down the center and the body spread apart (maybe 1/4"?) to accommodate the engine set back. This is the stuff of nightmares for first-time Pocher builders. But many gussets and fillers later it looks factory fresh. Then David fashioned the aluminum base trim seen above. I think it's .015" thick.

    Now come the Modelmotorcars windshield posts and spotlight/side mirrors. A stylish addition mimicking the original.

    79.jpg

    At this point I asked David if this will all be chromed and he gave a very interesting answer. This goes back to the days at MMC when partners with Marvin and the extensive study they gave the subject before creating the posts. I'll present his narrative here to better explain:

    This is polished aluminum.  In the past we have tried this in brass and had it chromed, but that is fraught with troubles.  The chroming process heats the metal, and because it was so thin (0.015”),  it changed the radii at the ends , creating a gap between the cowl and the trim.  Subsequently we came to believe the trim panel was actually part of the aluminum body and merely polished.  Later, we saw one up close and decided it was chromed brass.  Finally, I tried Bare Metal Foil over a styrene panel, which worked great, fooled everyone, but gave me sleepless nights worrying about it being damaged during shipping.  For what is surely my last attempt, I decided to go for polished aluminum.

    80.jpg

    Making this combination of materials feasible is the fact that the posts come with threaded posts cast onto the uprights. He and Marvin designed them this way  Holes are drilled through the trim piece and the body making a precise and solid, removable attachment. Remember a hallmark of Cox cars is mechanical fasteners, not glue. Valuable tips for advanced builds.

    The result is a highly visible styling element of the original and a treat for the eye.

    81.jpg

    More as I get it....:book:

    • Like 4
  2. 1 hour ago, Pouln said:

    Wow, I think I need to find another hobby. No end to the techniques he is using. 

    No - don't do that! We want and need you here in Pocherland! But the key to me bringing Dave's genius here is for others to try to employ those methods. And to counter the idea that an accurate classic can be built right out of the Pocher box. B)

    • Like 2
  3. 8 minutes ago, Calibre117 said:

    In honor of the 20th anniversary of Ayrton Senna's third and final Formula One World Championship, I am considering building a replica MP4/6, bedecked in 24-karat gold plating. Is this at all feasible? I am planning on using Fujimi's 1/20 scale MP4/6 as the base for the model, and electroplating 24-karat gold onto the plastic. Will the plastic surface suffice and be able to accept the electroplated gold? Furthermore, I would have to etch the various livery and sponsorship logos into the surface of the gold. How could I go about that? And lastly, if I were to purchase enough 24-karat gold to plate a model the size of a 1/20 MP4/6, how much would it cost? 

     

    Thanks

    I think the process more applicable is vacuum plating which is done in chrome (and probably gold) type finish - not electroplating. I would abandon this idea on several grounds.

    Real gold plating has cost and weight against it. I believe the small model's plastic joints would be unable to support its weight.

    Etching the signage into the surface - I have no idea how you might.

    If you must make a commemorative model, consider painting it with an Alclad gold or brass or any similar finish. Here is an example of vacuum plating; 1/8 scale model courtesy David Cox:

    188-PY-6000-4-8.jpg

  4. 22 minutes ago, Octavian said:

    Many thanks for this. I will go pick up some of the medium CA; that sounds like a good thing to experiment with. The gel is a bit thicker than is optimal, so I will definitely give the medium stuff a try. I appreciate all of the tips, and I will incorporate them into my technique; thanks so much.

     

     

    Well Andrew I'm late to the party as usual. But you can see, as advertised, the lads here are a fountain of first class tips and info. And they're all superb builders.

    I have had great success with gel, medium and thin CA's. But NO success keeping those %#$@(! bottle tips clean ! So I try to minimize using those right from the bottle.

    One of my go-to techniques is wicking thin CA along tight fitting joins. That and 'tacking' with a dab just to hold position on two parts and then comprehensive adhering when fit is perfected.

    To that end here's my 2 US cents contribution to the CA-use database. I think of it as my 'neanderthal method' - for it is really crude.

    An age ago, I fashioned  a scrap of PE, 2 mm or so wide and sandwiched it between two craft sticks to make a handle. Actually made a couple of these in different widths but the key is they are about .010" thick and RIGID. I take a now-ubiquitous plastic spoon and support it on a block with a weight to hold it down.  I pour a small puddle of thin CA into the spoon, dip the PE in and apply a well-controlled amount where I need it. The CA has a very good working time before hardening on the spoon and the bottle is capped closed all the while - insuring freshness.

    The really good part is that the flame of a small lighter will quickly burn off the PE  completely clean again. The one shown is about ten years old.

    Works with the other CA's also.

    Best / C

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    • Like 3
  5. Some important take-aways...

    I know I am preaching to a minuscule audience of those that actually want to build an advanced Pocher classic. But I feel we are all fortunate to see the work of Dave Cox under this microscope because it can apply to any other type of model project. And today I have some gems and personal insight of my own.

    In this batch of photos, the fitment of doors and hood are explained as he does them.

    The big thing to learn is to use mechanical fastenings as opposed to gluing for (heavy)  moveable parts. I learned this early on in my build from David.

    Here the brass hood tops are taped to the piano hinge. That has been located to the grille shell area and the cowl and will allow the hoods to open/close just as the original, half at a time.

    69.jpg

    This is the hood top's edge showing location for Pocher hinges to receive side panels. These are three different materials to be joined; brass hood, steel hinge, plastic side hood panel:

    70.jpg

    A close up shows that Dave's method of choice employs very fine wire rod to 'pin' parts together. That means drilling tiny holes. Where appropriate fine 00-90 screws can be used as I did on my doors and hood central hinge:

    71.jpg

    A snug fit to the side panel results:

    72.jpg

    Note the pins pierce the plastic side panel and can easily be trimmed flush.

    73.jpg

    74.jpg

    A custom, slotted door jamb is made and a pin awaits insertion of the hinge, making doors very easy to paint off the car:

    75.jpg

    Attention to detail; a custom tapered trim piece is made to transition from the door bottom edge to the hood side panel:

    76.jpg

    The thing I want to stress is to be unafraid to seek superior fastening methods and non - Pocher engineering to achieve advanced results. Sure - it's nice to have a storehouse of spares as Cox does but there are a few places to accumulate such parts. Including derelict kits, half built and abandoned by the fainthearted. It often involves much cutting of an expensive kit but if you have and rely on your skills, you will always achieve advanced results. Cox taught me that in about the first quarter of my build. Which is why it changed directions so much over time. I explored and employed different methods as they occurred to me. That's a great part of the fun and satisfaction.

    And here is latest magic-in-progress, dash top trim for the windshield area. A hellishly complex shape which will be stylish and graceful when he completes it.

    77.jpg

    Don't despair- just enjoy:

    78.jpg

     

     

    • Like 4
  6. 3 hours ago, Octavian said:

     

    . Any tips for working with small painted pieces so as to avoid marring the paint? Would latex gloves be in order when handling such pieces?

    As much as you can, handle with tweezers. Some guys use those sticky sticks to just touch an end.

    I have found gloves no help to me because the bits are small and the glove fingers get wrinkly - at least on me. Your results may vary. And the Future protection is certainly a help.

  7. Yes Poul- a learning experience. I was warned by Cox and followed exactly. The chromed rear window trim was about the last piece to go in. I made that about 3 mm deep. I cut the top fabric with scalpel to just wrap around the edge. Then a drop of epoxy at each side and inserted the chrome. Fussy but I got lucky.

    I might have suggested thicker diameter leather cord for the trim back there rather than two 1 mm's. It comes in 2 and 3 mm diameters, maybe more.

    The texture of black leather always adds to the appearance of these classics.

    • Like 1
  8. 6 minutes ago, Pouln said:

    The answer was that they lent these out many years ago and never received them back. 

    Can’t imagine that they had only one set of drawings and sent those out.

     

    Anyway, before that I do need to finish this build. I think it is time to do so. 😏

    As with all things Italian, anything is possible with my countrymen. :mental:

     

    Now this last makes me very happy....:penguin:

  9. 31 minutes ago, silver911 said:

    Very nice...but would like more pics please 🤬

    :wall: :weep: SO WOULD I ! But please don't shoot the messenger - it's very telling though.

     

    Dave is apparently having a steel cage wrestling match with this one and not taking any 'in the garden' glamour shots. I AM happy I got enough shots to illustrate the tough areas to help any interested builders.

    He will always send more but I must wait by the mail box for progress to continue. Glad we got the cabin shots and that's almost ready for mounting. When paint goes on (imminent now and weather-dependent) we'll have more to see.

    And as always there will be finished portraits to drool over.......:penguin:

  10. Some more insights...

    Along with this latest mock-up photo, David has shared more about the difficulties of the Pocher Benz. He grumbled that the last time he built a 540 from this base was ten years ago. And all the difficulties of course remain. He even called it an 'accursed conglomeration'  - OUCH!

    He decided to mount the door latches before paint because of the difficult door/panel fit. He is deliberately going slowly to eliminate poor fitments.

    A direct explanation:

    It might surprise you to know that the radiator flexes at least 0.25” side to side, and backs that up with some flex fore and aft. (NOTE; the braces have not yet been installed but will be after paint) The body is unsupported from the rear of the rumble seat rearward, which is a dramatic improvement over the cabriolet which is unsupported from the rear of the cockpit rearward. ( ! ) And the cowl wobbles side-to-side by 1/8”.

    Plenty of reason not to hack one up because like Humpty Dumpty, it does not easily go back together again. But Cox has made sufficient bracing to mitigate these horrors.

    Latest photo to prove that cunning and persistence as well as huge experience pays off. A lovely classic profile. The swoopy windshield will add to the glamour:

    68.jpg

    More soon.........

    C

    • Like 3
  11. 4 hours ago, silver911 said:

    Personally...I much prefer the 'elegance' of the Rolls...to the 'brutish' Merc...which always feels better suited to a blustering show off...more brawn than brains...so to speak.

     

    First, thanks for posting an interesting opinion. One I largely agree with. Discussion always welcomed here.

    Having tried to emphasize the RR 'elegance', I find it a much more subtle expression of that than the Benz. 'Stately' rather than 'flashy'. Even in the short chassis  two seat Rolls roadsters and cabriolets.

    The 540 however is 'in your face' Teutonic, symbolic of what was happening in that country in 1935 - exuding strength, brawn and 'superiority'. 'Elegance' was forced - by swoopy proportions and fluid lines - many of them. And then to further force the concept, lavish chrome everywhere possible to make the point. 

    Cox has captured all of this in his 15 or 20 Benz builds over the years. Getting the proportions of this one correct from a Pocher start is a major accomplishment.

    Thanks Ron / C

     

    • Like 1
  12. Oh baby...

    Hot off the press - apparently a productive weekend for Mr Cox; a full mock-up in primer.

    Simple lacquer spray can primer. But now easier to see the body relocations, splices and tweeks, all in one color.  The inside of the passenger door shows the splices and reinforcements when shortening a door. More as I get them...

    67.jpg

    • Like 3
  13. 57 minutes ago, Octavian said:

     

    Dave,

     

    Many thanks. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "lap" in this context; apologies if I'm missing something obvious.

     

    Best,

    Andrew

    Dave pays you quite a compliment here about how realistic your work looks.  Lapping is a now near - obsolete process by which abrasive compound is applied to the valve seat in the combustion chamber and the valve is then inserted and rotated to make a compatible mating surface and angle with the valve's margin.  Precision machining and CNC have now made that process un-necessary.

    • Thanks 1
  14. That's called a trunion Andrew. The rocker pivots on the shaft which is held captive at the ends by the trunion which bolts to the head.

    Ron is right; this tedious work prepares your mind for the long road ahead of prepping tiny parts to fit perfectly together for the whole build. Take all the photos as you do this work because much of it will go away after assembly. But the 'fun' of it is what you're doing now - and all the satisfaction.

    Beautiful, precise work/

    C

    • Like 1
  15. 7 hours ago, Octavian said:

    Amazing work; just exceptional. Do you know how he made the piping that goes around the base of the seat and down the sides, or did he perhaps use an existing product for that, some type of tubing or rolled leather or vinyl?

    Great questions on a thorny subject. Piping is a VERY fiddly area. A mistake can ruin an otherwise perfect upholstery job.

    David and I differ on this material. He prefers thin electrical wire which is NOT Teflon coated - CA won't stick. He paints it to color match and trims it with precision cutters. Lots of work...but his experience-borne results are beyond criticism.

    I found round leather cord to be far superior, especially for a first-time upholsterer (ME !). Although commonly available on the web I love this supplier for huge range of colors and diameters at very reasonable prices:

    https://www.leathercordusa.com/product/0201-1MM.html

    I found sizes of 1, 1.5 or 2 MM to be ideal for 1/8 scale but thinner .5MM is available if you make suitcases and such. It's as flexible as your shoelace so goes around any contour with ease.

    Again I use gel CA for a bit of working time, no staining and ferocious grip. I apply tiny amounts with the edge of a 1 MM PE scrap blade, while pulling the piping taut with tweezer  for 5 seconds or so until it sets. 

    I found a perfect match to my gray and deep red for the headliner, fabric top trim and carpet binding.

    576-pasted-Graphic.png

    762-pasted-Graphic.png

    IMG-6629-HI-2.jpg

    Final word ; if you want perfection, test and practice to delirium.............:mental:

     

    • Like 2
  16. 7 hours ago, silver911 said:

    A masterclass in upholstery...never easy...even in  1/8 😱

    Surprised at use of CA gel for adhesive...would have thought it would be a problem...in as much as it tends to dry crystalline at times...showing small lumps!...my thought would have been a 'contact' adhesive...Evo Stik...Uhu...or some such...live and learn eh :)

     

    I embraced gel CA after much testing - with it and some of the type solutions you mention. I found the slightly longer working time superior to regular CA (staining and instant stick) and contact adhesives  (instant also and you only get one shot). The time is needed so you can grab/clamp leather or fabric and pull it tightly around corners - THEN stick it down. This keeps wrinkles at a minimum. For the pleats, I applied a thin smear in the grove, tucked leather in with a razor saw blade and voila! It stuck tightly with no crusty lumps.

    Many ways to skin a cat and others will have fine results with their methods. I considered contact for the large area roof fabric adhesive but again - testing - found ATG double side tape easier to apply and more forgiving. Sometimes you must combine methods as I used ATG for the broad areas and gel CA at the top corners, all edges and piping. Glad to say it's all still drum tight today 6+ years later.

    I learned model upholstery is an art unto itself to be mastered for an advanced build. I thank the stars for my luck as a first time hacker...

    769-pasted-Graphic.png

    18-HI-2.jpg

     

    • Like 2
  17. Insights from the edge...

    As we know, David is building an advanced Pocher-based Benz. His modifications to turn it into a very accurate 540 Spezial are highly involved. He refers to many quality reference books of the real car as well as decades of his personal study of classic-era cars. He also frequently confers with quality restorers of these museum pieces and attends concours and high-end auctions.

    I will first bring you the eye-watering interior upholstery to die for he is just now finishing after two weeks work. Then, of great value to Pocher Benz builders, I'll share the insights he shared with me after my intense questioning...:whip:

    This scandalous red was the customer's wish and is being applied here. A huge skill needed to do this is to get kid skin down to .005" thick so it stretches around edges like this. The adhesive of choice is gel CA which will not stain or 'bleed' through to the surface. Cutting over-size is vital also because you can't 'piece in' without notice;

    61.jpg

    Several of us would sacrifice body parts to turn out an interior like this. Note seat adjuster:

    62.jpg

    63.jpg

    64.jpg

    Seat angle brackets in chrome are wonderful details. Just like Mercedes would do:

    65.jpg

    Now in the previous post I showed the dashboard. I questioned David on why the leather went all the way to the cowl and windshield base. He replied that it wasn't trimmed yet. This led to further hounding by me which led to the following significant findings.

    A better look at the near finished dashboard:

    60.jpg

    David generously allows me to print verbatim, excerpts from our conversation:

    "...the body gets painted before the dash is installed.  The real issue is the troublesome V’ed windshield which must be installed before the body is mounted.  Once the body is installed, the dashboard can be installed, but not before working out how to attach the steering column to the bottom edge of the dashboard, a subject on which our Pocher friends are strangely silent.  Finally, the issue of which car to copy regarding the detail of the leather between the lower edge of the windshield and the top of the dash.  My guess is that the leather will be tucked right up to the windshield."

    A quick reminder here is that Cox has already moved the body aft, widened it at the cowl and shortened the doors - to 'make' a 540 Roadster. This plays havoc with the angled and vee'd windshield frame. The Pocher piece is terrible for finish and accuracy so the ModelMotorcars optional piece is used. It is greatly better than the kit piece but slight compromise in its design was needed so it would fit all three main Pocher kit designs. (None of which are 'accurate'  500'540's, the Cabriolet being closest).  Remember too that Cox was partners with Marvin Meit in MMC in the '90's and is responsible for many of those gorgeous optional handles, brackets, fittings and trim bits being cast in bronze and chromed. They were all well researched from real cars and beautify so many Pocher classics.

    A museum car from book reference with commentary:

    66.jpg

    From Cox:

    "You can see the museum car has a trim strip to kill the leather, painted cowl, and then windshield.  Several cars omit the chrome strip and a few run the leather to the windshield.  Not much of a worry with the Pocher because there is not enough room because the windshield is too shallow to allow enough space for so many materials.  The Pocher is considerably wider, the V of the windshield is considerably flatter, and a chrome strip would need to be mounted right at the seam between the dash and the cowl.  Did I mention that the dash is supposed to be a friction fit onto the lip of the body?  If I forgot to mention the friction fit, it may be because I was distracted by the fact that the curvature of the cowl and the dash has to match in order for the dash to fit, and, of course, the curvature has been altered in order to widen the cowl in order to get the body to fit farther back on the frame."  :wall:

    To sum up with very telling info for those that open a Pocher box and expect a museum piece:

    "The issue is that there are three Pocher bodies and only one MMC windshield.  The angle is correct for all three. (Mercedes also used similar hardware on all three body styles), the V is correct for the K-91.   The height is pretty close for the K-91, almost correct for the roadsters, and a tad short for the cabriolet."

    My sincere thanks to David Cox for allowing me to share his years of work and amazing insights with you all here.

    More 'Pocher Dirty Secrets' next time......:wicked: :devil:

    • Like 5
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