mongo

Greets All; I am collecting information for a somewhat ambitious modeling project and have encountered questions I cannot answer from my resources. Therefore I come here to the Great Source of Knowledge and Truth... Since the specific aircraft I want to model are not represented in aftermarket (or kit) decals I have to cobble together my own collection of markings. I have gone to my collection of aftermarket decals and found a wide variety of sizes of insignia and code letters; those sources only raise more questions... 😕 Was there a "standard" size for RAF letter-codes? Specifically, I am inquiring about Hurricanes in the Jun 40 to Sep 41 time frame and the transition from the dark earth/dk green/sky schemes to the dk green/dk sea gray/med sea gray schemes. Same question for Spitfires; was there a "standard" size for code letters after the Aug 41 paint scheme transition? Also, I have the same question regarding Luftwaffe aircraft. I have some references that show specifications for insignia size that are type-specific as well as unit code lettering. Specifically, I'm doing a Do 17E-2 and Ju 87B-1 in Sep 39. Can anyone offer info stating specific insignia size and specifications for code letter sizes for those type aircraft? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Mongo Cincinnati, 'Mer'ka

303 sqn: WOW! You've done ALL my legwork for me; THANK YOU! If I ever get to Nottingham, I owe you a beer. Jeff

My principal references for the serial number info are the listings in the MDF 22 (Franks, SAM Publications) and Famous Aircraft of the World (Caruana, Periscopio). Caruana's listing says 1000 aircraft, Hawker built, contract 62305/39, serial begin with Z2308 and go all the way to Z4018 with gaps. Franks listing includes identical information as well as a few additional details about specific aircraft used for testing and development, delivery dates from Jan-Jul '41 302 Squadron operation records show numerous serials in that time period, about 28 (the copy of the on-line document is muddy and the clerk made several typos/overstrikes that make it difficult at times to determine the actual serial). I'm looking at the period of Mar-Apr '41; they converted from Mk Is to Mk IIs o/a 9 Mar '41. Mk II delivery started 6 weeks prior and they received early production aircraft; earliest is Z2342 and highest Z3098, most being Z24XX - Z28XX. 1. Is there a direct correlation between serial sequence and production sequence? In other words were the first aircraft off the line Mk IIA Series 1, the next Mk IIA Series 2, the next being Mk IIB? 2. Is there a listing of Series 1 serials and how many aircraft were included? Franks alternatively states "the first 120 aircraft" or "approximately 100" aircraft. If "the first 120 aircraft", then Series 1 encompassed Z2308 - Z2483. 3. Did Mk IIA Series 2 production cease entirely on the production line and then all subsequent aircraft turned out as Mk IIBs? 4. How many Mk IIA Series 2 were produced and at what point was production converted to Mk IIB, or were they mixed on the production line throughout the production block? Now, to throw another grenade into the room: spinners... Franks indicates that the subject production block were fitted with both Rotol and deHavilland props. His diagrams depict both the short "pointed" and short "blunt" spinners corresponding respectively to Series 1 and Series 2/ IIBs. Further, his diagrams mention only Rotol props while his production block notes indicate both type props. Were specific spinner shapes associated with a specific prop (Rotol or dH)? I've seen images described as Mk IIs with the long spinner; when/with what Mark or type prop were those introduced? It seems pretty random. Were the various spinners interchangeable with all types of props fitted to the Mk IIs? Was the long spinner merely an aerodynamic improvement unassociated with dimensional requirements of the actual prop mechanism?

2. Strenuously resist any temptation to impute meaning to suffix variations A (a), B (b), C(c) and so on. There is no meaning to be found there. Is there a preferred convention of upper-case or lower-case suffix? 3. I am reasonably confident that there was no Hurricane Z2845, or indeed any other RAF aircraft allocated that serial. Is that a typo on your part? You are correct it was a typo..., I *should* have noted it as Z2485. 5. I don't understand what you mean by "they were somewhat later in the production block so the wing issue is moot", which might mean I have missed your point somewhere. Z2350 was a pretty early Hurricane II Perhaps I'm making erroneous assumptions here. The production block I refer to was a series of 1000 Hawker-built Mk IIs; a mixed bag of IIAs and IIBs including Series I aircraft. I assume that the serials were assigned sequentially during production; first off the line would have the "lower" serial numbers and later aircraft would have the higher numbers. My references indicate there were only about 100 Series I aircraft and I assume those would be the lowest serials; please correct me if I'm in error. Z2485 was beyond the first 100 or so and, I assume, outside the questionable wing issue. Other correspondent's information suggest that the next aircraft were IIAs. Most of the serials I'm looking at are up to Z30XX serials when IIBs start to appear; I have no idea where the IIA/IIB cutoff was or, were they produced concurrently? My references do not include specific Series, Marks or production dates associated with serial numbers. As I said, I'm speculating based on logical progression. Can you direct me to a document that will give me unequivocal information to resolve that question? Thanks.

Well, I went back to review the information that led me to my question and apparently I misunderstood what I read. It seems (according to the article) that the Series I was planned to have the twelve-gun wing, but owing to a shortage of guns, were built with 8-gun wings. Dopey me... 🙄 The aircraft I'm interested in are those that flew with 302 Squadron (Polish). See my other recent post on that subject. Apparently, information that might identify the specific aircraft I'm interested in from a flight on 21 May 41 by P/O Gnys is lost. I'm considering making two other aircraft: either Hurricane Mk IIA Z2845 WX-U or Z2350 WX-W. I speculate (since I have no information what serials were Series I aircraft) that these were Series II aircraft since they were somewhat later in the production block so the wing issue is moot. I am going to go back to the British archives and research Mk Is that Gnys may have flown when 302 Sq was so equipped. My objective is to make a series of aircraft flown by or associated with P/O Wladeslaw Gnys to include a Hurricane while he was with 302 Squadron. While not really germane to this forum, I'm also trying to identify an MS 406 that he might have flown while with GCIII/1 during the Battle of France. I do have another Hurricane question though... In my references there are notations showing Hurricane Mk IIA and Mk IIB and then others that use Mk IIa and Mk IIb, etc. Is there a difference between aircraft sub-types designated by upper-case and lower-case subscript? Or is that merely an inconsistency in nomenclature? Tony, thanks for all the useful and enlightening info you included! Jeff

I am contemplating a project involving a Hurricane Mk IIA. My reading to this point suggests that the production block of MK IIAs that my subject comes from had the 12-gun wing but only 8 guns installed. I would assume that the wing interior was structurally beefed-up to accommodate the weight and recoil of the additional guns and altered to accommodate fitting the additional two guns outboard in the wing. My uncertainty lies in the external appearance: were the access panels for the guns bays and ammunition bins and ejection ports present on wings that were fitted from the factory with only eight guns? Thanks for any thoughts. Jeff Cramer

Once again, thank you all for the responses; you have been most helpful! Jeff

Greetings All; Thank you for the responses and the suggestions for further investigation; I found more information but not complete answers for my research; I shall continue to follow the leads you have provided. JWM: I see that you are in Krakow. I just returned to the US from my first visit to Poland; we spent several days (5-9 June) in Krakow! We very much enjoyed the city. I also spent a day at the Polish Aviation Museum photographing the PZL 11 and all the MiGs and Shukois. Small world! Jeff

I am trying to find info on a specific aircraft operated by 302 Squadron. Is there a website with a comprehensive list of aircraft assigned to 302 Squadron to include dates of service and losses. I am trying to find out what aircraft was flown by Wladislaw Gnys on 21 May 1941 when he was nearly shot down on a mission. Any experts out there that might be able to help me? Jeff "Mongo" Cramer Cincinnati, USA