Sydhuey

gmoss you are obviously ex armour, nice Beast my cousin worked with them in Nam, he was 3 Cav (APC at AWM was his "and Tears III" -name not applied before loss to mine), his son 2/14 LH and my brother 2/14 and 2 Cav, nice Aussie armour you make mate! like the other 113 in the background.

Nice model with the DU sqn code applied this makes the time frame post Jun/Jul 43 when the Sqn moved to Goodenough Island, A28-5 DU-F was a good old bird was in action for 2 years did approx 100 missions , crash landed Apr 42 repaired, damaged enemy action Apr 43 repaired, damaged enemy action Aug 43 repaired, damaged enemy action Sep 43 repaired, last mission Mar 44 withdrawn from frontline use Aug 44, converted to components Apr 45.

Nice model mate , my brother was an ASLAV crew commander and he said it looked great , he picked a few things that only a Cav guy would pick , but good model , he even said that "it looks just like F__k_n Northern Territory red mud!"

Dave, the first picture is A28-16 (Indoor Sport) "R", not a "P" (window is in the middle of the leg in the R making it look like a P) and A28-5 "F" , the second is of A28-5 ,now DU-F a year or so latter, more worn and faded, the 22 DB-7B's stayed in there base colour of Dupont DG,DE and Sky, there whole lives though became quite patchy with repairs in Folige green etc with time, and yes the roundels were originaly type A , Yellow, Blue , White, Red, the Yellow was painted over before leaving Australia and the red was painted out before going into action. A basic time line for RAAF Boston pictures , no codes pre deployment to New Guinea, single letter code Port Moresby period ,Nov 42 to June 43,(Time period Newton operated with Sqn Nov 42 to Mar43) DU Sqn code applied on move to Goodenough Island Jul43, A-20C's post Sep/Oct 43 A-20A's post Oct 43 A-20G's post Jun 44

, The first photo is the style of markings when Bill Newton flew Bostons before his loss,"Q","H" and "Y" with the large single a/c code letter, the second shot is of the latter style markings post Jun/Jul 43 with smaller code letters, unfortunatly most pictures , models and decals have Newtons aircraft in the latter style markings, which are post his loss and incorrect.

A much used shot of "The Boston Newton was shot down in" No!, actualy this is A28-18 "DU-Y", not A28-3 "C", the photo was taken on 24 Mar 1944 , 22 Sqn forming up over Kiriwina for a mission to New Britain a year after Newton was shot down, one of the tell tales is DU-W A28-30 in the background behind DU-F , An A-20C delivered to the Sqn in Oct 43,seven months after Newton was lost.

Thanks for that Dave , as I expected incorrect markings , "H" was in the std RAF colours of Dupont , Dark Green/ Dark Earth and Sky, A28-7 serial on fuselage side under the tail and the "H" should be forward of the roundel, when sqn codes applied in Jun/Jul 43 the a/c code letter was moved to behind the roundel and "DU" applied fwd of the roundel, also the single a/c code letter was reduced in size when the sqn code was applied and moved to the rear of the roundel, also as a side note the Boston at the RAAF museum at Point Cook , A28-8 DU-J was flown on missions twice by Bill Newton on 18 and 22 Feb 43, so there are two a/c in the world flown on missions by V.C. winners

I would also like to see the profiles from the Model Aircraft Monthly series , as I have not seen an accurate profile yet of Bill Newtons Boston.

Going back thru old threads and came across this , A correction on Bill Newtons Boston ID, Three Bostons are associated with Bill Newton, his assigned aircraft (which he only flew a couple of times in action) DB-7B Boston III A28-15 (RAF serial AL361) "Q" "SPIRIT OF SPORT" , the DU sqn code was not added to the aircraft till approx 4 months after Newton was shot down in mid Mar43, this aircraft marked as DU-Q has been done by Frog and several sets of after market decals are also have these markings this aircraft was lost on a raid to Gasmata ,New Britain on 15 Sep 43 with crew , DB-7B Boston III A28-7 (RAF serial AL899) "H", this is the aircraft he flew on his 16 Mar 43 mission to Salamaua, the main mission he got his VC for, the aircraft was badly shot up and was out of action for a couple of months , got the DU Sqn codes applied Jun/Jul 43 and remained with 22 Sqn till Jun 44 when it crashed on take off and was converted to spares, this aircraft has not been done by a manufacture or after market decals, which I find strange, the third Boston is A28-3 (RAF serial AL887) "C" (constantly misidentified as DU-Y)this is the aircraft Newton was shot down in on his 18 Mar 43 mission to Salamaua, this aircraft was lost before the DU sqn code was applied , though there are photos of A28-18 "DU-Y" which are usualy missidentified as Newtons aircraft taken before the mission ( it was only issued to the sqn in Jan 44 after 2 crashes and extensive rebuilding), A28-3 "C" has not been done by a manufacture and no after market decals are available , once again I find this strange , hope this clears up Newton V.C.'s Bostons.

G'day Peter, I have seen US mods to fit a rearward remote fired .30 to each rear engine nacelle but this was also considered a failure. I went thru all my 89th BS 3rd BG pictures of there A-20A aircraft, they moded there 30 odd A-20's with the 4 x .50's just before the 22 Sqn machines got done and can not see anything sticking out the tails of them, it may have been a RAAF only mod? As 22 Sqn had a few pilots who flew the Boston in Europe and the Desert they may have pushed for the rear guns on experiance there, Bostons in the mid east operated in the traditional mid level light bombers and had lots of trouble with German fighters, something RAAF Bostons and US A-20's didn't have in the low level strafer mode.

Peter, thanks for the correction to my misinformation, never knew the tail gun was fitted to so many aircraft, no mention in any book or record i've seen only mention of the mod to 8(J) and 9(K),madly going thru all my photo's when you look closly at them you can see the gun sticking out the tail (i'd never looked that close at them before), I think it must have been done about the same time as the nose 4 x.50 gun mounts as I can't see it on any of the photos when the a/c still had glass noses ( though the glass nosed versions had up to 3 ball mounts fitted for a .303 freemount in the nose), all the photo's with the tail guns appear to be the Port Moresby time period with solid noses and single letter codes Nov 42 -Jun 43 , by the time the sqn's a/c had the DU code applied (about the move to Goodenough post Jun 43) all the a/c appear to have the tail guns removed. The .50 mod to 22 is something don't know how they did it there is not much room back there with rudder and elevator controls and trim controls, room was at a premium, even the single .303 would be a bit of a fit let alone 2 of them. A photo of A28-8 "J" with 24 mission marking (mid Apr 43) still shows the tail gun, photo's taken as "DU-J" Jul/Aug 43 show the tail gun gone and a normal tail fairing. Thanks Peter, you have opened another part of the RAAF Boston history .

I know that 6 of the original 22 Bostons had a single tail .303 fitted to the extreme tail , 1 had twin .303's squeezed into the tail and 1 had a .50 in the tail A28-8 DU-J and A28-9 DU-K both had the trial gun fitted as a bit of a scare gun with tracer ammo to scare any fighter away from a stern attack , proven not to be a success or need for the gun so was removed (get rid of unnessassary weight) ( few fighters could keep up with a Boston on low level ops, it is recorded about P-40's having trouble keeping up with Bostons on the deck so Japanese fighters were not a problem). The RAAF used Observers, in the RAAF an Observer was above a Navigator as an Observer was multi skilled, while a multi crewed aircraft like a B-24 may have specialist crew such as Gunners , Navigators, and Bombadiers, smaller aircraft like the Boston and Beaufighters and Beauforts had Observers, trained in navigation , Radio operatorations, Gunnery and Bomb Aiming, the Bostons before they got there gun noses had 4 man crews, Observer, Pilot, and 2 x Wireless operator /Gunners ( another RAAF multiskill aircrew WAG- Wireless operator Air Gunner) , when the gun noses mod happened the observers were posted out , but an interesting fact when the C model and latter the G model Bostons came to the sqn Observers came back as longer range missions happened one of the WAG's in some aircraft was replaced with a Observer for navigation , and by late 44 most WAG's were posted from the Sqn as RAAF B-24 units were forming and they needed gunners and replaced with Observers as the air threat was considered gone by late 44 and navigation on long missions considered more important , the crews dropped from 3 to 2 as the lower gunner was considered superfluous and many times a photographer was carried instead.

Russ, if you look in the WW2 era disscussion there is a thread on RAAF Boston III's in it is a copy of an article on RAAF Bostons added by Steven Eisenman you may be interested in , pictures of another "Hilda Shane" etc , also the RAAF never refered to there A-20's as Havoc's, they were Boston III's (DB-7B's), A-20A Bostons, A-20C Bostons or A-20G Bostons even though they were working next to US A-20 Havoc units.

Thanks Steven have added that article to my collection of Boston articles, I had the pictures but lost the text. Also Peter to add to Daniels request do you have any pictures of RAAF A-20G's in flight , I have never seen one, lots of DB-7B's and C's and evan an A but none of the G's in flight.

Look great Russ, but the markings on the A-20 are wrong in the kit A28-60 "Hilda Shane " is actualy DU-D, DU-P was A28-68, this has been an unfortunate mistake around for a few years, MPM got there markings on there 1/72 A-20 wrong as well, NOVASCALE has the correct DU-D, "Hilda Shane" A28-60 DU-D was the only A-20G in 22 Sqn to have personal markings as it was the aircraft of the CO Sqn Ldr (Later W.C.) Colin Woodman, he flew it on 20 of its 22 missions before it was destroyed in the Japanese night raid on Morotai on 22/23 nov 44, also the bomb log should be in green not white. green was a 50/50 mix of white and dark green. other than the "P" instead of "D" and bomb log this is the best presented RAAF A-20G i've seen.

Will just add abit about the Zero as I don't what to get away from the Bostons, Sakai saw the aircraft several years after restoration and he was the one who commented about some aircraft being a darker grey and it looked ok, he wasn't asked about it , he instigated the conversation on the differant colours. As a foot note I overhauled the main struts and the tail wheel on that Zero restoration.

Thanks for that Peter , that makes it clearer and more confusing !!, I wonder why the RAAF had some a/c with closed vents and the majority with open vents, by the age of the photo's it appears that aircraft that had the vents covers had them removed with time and by the move to Goodenough in Jun/Jul 43 were all removed, going thru all my photo's of A-20A's with the 89th Bs 3 rd BG I can't find any photo's with a closed vent , also all the photo's i've seen of the DB-7B Bostons captured by the japanes all have the vent covers fitted, which would support what you said that they were delivered with vent covers and removed by the user, also I notice that the Japanese Bostons never had the gun blisters fitted to the nose , either they never got to Java with the spares package or the Japanese just never fitted them, The A-20C's the RAAF recieved as they had .50 cals instead of .303's in the cheek positions never had the blisters fitted which added to the reasons the A-20C's were faster than the DB-7B's

Seahawk, some of the research I've done on the "C" models I believe they were the leftovers of approx 50 A-20C's shipped out to the Pacific in mid 1943, 39 were converted to P-70A-1's and the remaining 9 given to the RAAF,I believe the 5 x .50 nose with strike camera was a hybrid conversion from the P-70 conversion program (the P-70A-1 was armed with .50's instead of 20mm). some of the serial numbers of the approx 50 machines to ship to the Pacific; A28-27 42-33134 A-20C 42-33135 P-70 42-33137 P-70 42-33141 P-70 A28-28 42-33142 A-20C 42-33143 P-70 42-33148 P-70 42-33152 P-70 A28-23 42-33154 A-20C A28-24 42-33163 A-20C 42-33164 P-70 42-33165 P-70 A28-31 42-33168 A-20C 42-33170 P-70 A28-25 42-33172 A-20C A28-30 42-33174 A-20C 42-33177 P-70 42-33179 P-70 A28-26 42-33180 A-20C A28-29 42-33211 A-20C 42-33221 P-70

Thank you all,this has developed in to a very good thread, The infomation by Nick Millman I found very interesting, having been involved in painting modern military, civilian and historic aircraft I agree colour perseption is a very individual thing and even supposed FS or other standards, until the advent of computer paint tinting I believe was only ever an approximate science, a clasic story in point was the restoration and painting of the A6M2 Zero in the Australian war memorial, it was colour matched to sample chips taken from various parts of the airframe, when painted it was a darker hue of grey than what was considered "normal" for a Zero, many experts proclaimed how wrong it was , the person who approved and justified the actual colour was Saburo Sakai himself who when he saw the aircraft(he had flown that particular aircraft on several occasions) confirmed that several Zero's in the unit were darker than the rest and he believed it was a good rendition of the aircraft colour.

feropete. Peter, Good to have contact with you at last , I have seen photo's from the "Malone Collection" used in several publications, one thing I was wondering do you just supply the photo's as I have seen several photo's with differant captions and some captions on your Boston photo's are not exactly the most accurate, would like very much to see your whole Boston collection and discuss accurate captions for them , I think we all have great interest in all aircraft but A-20 Boston/Havoc's are my passion, regards Syd.

While discussing various points on the Boston with Daniel we discovered that a long held belief that early model Boston III and A-20A's with "Tropical Cowls" with the series of cooling holes in the cowls and overseas Boston III's with solid cowl may in fact be the same cowls , I believed that some photo's of Australian Bostons A28-4,-16,-21 (and several photo's of Bostons captured by the Japanese sister A/C to the Australian Bostons) had solid cowls, high defenition photo's posted earlier by Daniel show these cowls actualy have panels that are fitted into the holes making the cowl look solid, why the RAAF would have some a/c with cowls with the cooling holes covered over and the rest left open is anybody's guess, severel publications on the Boston state that the earlier build Bostons had the cooling holes and as it was found that it wasn't that sucessful and went to a colid cowl on later "C's",this may be wrong but as no examples of the "C" model are preserved in the world , it is somthing we can only presume. Some facts on A28-8 "DU-J" "Jessica" This Boston restored at RAAF Base Amberley in the late 80's early90's and now on display at the RAAF Museum, is the only Boston III preserved/restored in the world (may be some DB-7B, DB-7C and A-20C's on the Russian steppes), this is a historically important aircraft as not only is it the only early Boston on display in the world ,its original RAF serial # AL907 show it was the last of 240 DB-7B's build by Douglas of an order of 480 , (had Douglas production number 240 on nose visible during restoration), it is a combat vet having been on 49 combat missions crash landing from battle damage on its 49th,it is one of only two aircraft preserved flown by VC winners in combat (Bill Newton flew "J" on two combat missions 18 and 22 feb 43)(the other is William Barkers Sopwith Camel in Canada),it also a memorial to one Gunner killed (Sgt. H.C. Taylor) and another badly wounded (Sgt.D.O. Duncan) on a night mission to Lae on 24 May 43. Damage from this mission is visible on the original fuselage skins at RAAF Amberley Aviation heritage centre.

the rear fuselage skins (L/H and R/H) are in storage at the Amberley Heritage centre, it is hoped to have them mounted with the photos of the various roundels as well to show the various roundel configurations applied to the Aircraft, the original skin with the bomb log is at the RAAF museum , thats why I find it strange they were painted Yellow when the original (badly faded but still obviously green) was on hand.

Daniel , I believe all the DB-7B's Douglas and Boeing built are Boston III's ,later A-20C's are Boston IIIA's.

CDK, the interior colour in A28-8 (DB-7B Boston III) was colour matched to the existing paint in the fuselage (excellent un faded samples were removed for colour matching from inside the fuselage), these aircraft were from the RAF order for 480 Bostons (taken over from the French)I am not sure of the spec or name of the actual colour but it is a very accurate duplication of the interior colour, the A-20G's ( I think we had about 6 airframes at Amberley were all in the std American spec Interior green), this aircraft (DB-7B) were painted to british requirement/specs and this aircraft is the only DB-7B (Boston III) restored in the world , though DB-7B, DB-7C(yes one of the mystical Dutch machines) and A-20C's have been found in Russia, hopefully info and photo's will eventualy emerge of these aircraft. regards Syd.

Nick, has just reinforced what has been known for a long time the actual tints of paint on Aircraft Like the Boston painted to a British spec with American paint is a big grey area, to me matching paints to known paint samples is better than just quoting a paint spec, look at the colour photo's put up by Daniel of a US Based Boston painted to British spec , compare these to the photo's I posted of the original panels from DU-J ,A28-8 and compare to the restored A28-8 which was painted to a paint spec not colour matching, I does not look right, paint colour is always a contentious issue, I have painted quite afew aircraft over the years and no two aircraft are the same unless they are painted with the same batch at the same time, I have worked on C-130H's in Australia and have had 5-6 Hercs side by side with the age of paint jobs between new and 5 years old , they are all in the same colours but the colour differances are amazing, have also seen UH-1's one in Townsville (tropic area) and one in Canberra (cool climate) both were painted as same time but when the two machines were together 18 months later you would not thing they were the same spec colours, I am always amused about people who jump on people who paint models and say no thats wrong , blah ,blah,etc, to me unless a colour is radicaly differant to known photo's /info of a paint scheme , the aircraft at some time in its life probably looked like this, as I said I'm an aircraft engineer and have painted aircraft anything within a couple shades lighter or darker than a set shade is close enough for me. Just my opinion on colours.