Philbky

Thanks John. There's not too much more to tell. It's interesting that what I have believed for over 40 years, based on info from a source close to the "action", and which I never queried in any depth partly because I only saw 'VMH and 'VMI in the red square scheme, has turned out to be accurate only insofar as it was what the airline stated it wanted to happen, not what actually occurred. It just shows how little should be taken on trust - moreso today when the Internet can spread unreliable information like wildfire unless challenged (well done Dave in taking the time to challenge my post) and can even become established as "fact" should the information be picked up by the media for some reason. I always thought the "half Jack" livery was very poor on any aircraft though your rendition shows it at its best. The main colour was insipid and showed as a weak black (or mud as someone said) in certain lights. There was a discussion in the press about the "mutilation" of the national flag and the BEA logo was just a mess compared to the crisp letter on the red square. As far as the 1-11 goes, the red square livery I would rate as the second best livery ever applied to a 1-11. Mohawk's black and gold stripe Indian head livery was by far the best. Phil

No need to apologise, I'd rather the record be accurate and it can be quite interesting to track down as much of the truth as possible - and I hope Viking will bear with us a little longer. I've spent some time today trying to find info and have contacted someone who was at BEA, in engineering, at the time (my Hurn contact is long dead). The record I received from my Hurn contact, on which I based my original post, seems to have been BEA's original idea for how they wished 1-11 painting to be handled after the new "half Jack" - or in fairness to BEA, "Speedjack" scheme was announced. From my own observations at Hurn on visits in 1965 and 1966, fuselages were painted in the colour scheme of the customer early in the assembly process and were protected as the aircraft progressed along the line. I've good memories of partially completed but almost fully painted 200/400 srs for Braniff, American Mohawk and Helmut Horten amongst others. I've no reason to believe this changed for the 500srs. 'VMH to 'VMR were the aircraft to be built and delivered in 1968. After the announcement of the new scheme BEA asked that from VMJ onwards (VMH/I being retained for development), the aircraft should be delivered in the new colours as they didn't want their latest aircraft delivered in the old scheme. BAC demurred on the basis that the paint shop at Hurn was too busy and repainting would disrupt production. The aircraft would have to be ferried to Weybridge for repaint and take their place in the queue there. The 1969 deliveries would be delivered, it was agreed, in the new scheme. Two other items then came into play whilst BEA was deciding if it would pay for the repaints as space became available or wait until the aircraft were able to fit into the Heathrow paint shops - fully booked for, in particular, the Trident fleet. First, discussions with Air France re the IGS were concluded and the "Super One-Eleven" lash up scheme was devised. Secondly - and this was the reason the aircraft served up to 12 months in the red square scheme - BEA brought forward its 1-11 operation on the IGS from January 1969 to September 1968, with full service from November, in order to gain familiarity for crews and to show off the aircraft in comparison to the Air France Caravelle and the Pan American B727. This meant the aircraft were taken on charge in Germany as soon as they became available and were used with no time for repainting. 'VMM which had been outshopped as a red square aircraft was repainted at Weybridge as a one off special, it seems within days of its first flight, in the "Super One Eleven" scheme, which it retained thereafter to demonstrate the colours and serve as a "mule" for any alterations - thus the photos linked to in my previous post. It had been BEA's intention, had the aircraft received the new colours, to replace the partial union flag and titles, in the light of the Air France agreement, as aircraft rotated into Germany once the agreement took effect. This, of course did not happen and the red flag scheme persisted for some months, including trips on Air France flights, until the rest of the order, delivered in "Super One Eleven" scheme took over the flights, allowing the 1968 deliveries to be repainted. In the light of the above it seems I've been sitting on info based on an original plan that was passed to me a couple of years after it was made and then amended without the amendment being passed on to me. As to the photos I'd like to know the real location and date of VMM surrounded by suits, white coats and opposite the DC8 as, from the above, in the few days between its first flight date and the date of repainting at Weybridge, it obviously went somewhere where it generated interest. My contact confirms that the first srs500 into Templehof was for the September 1st launch, as previously stated.

edited and reposted below

The shop is well stocked with models but after market items are (if any) few and far between. I'd certainly buy kits there if I lived nearby but an 170 mile round trip on bad roads with diesel at €1.50 a litre plus at least €1 for parking (more if you want time to browse), the VAT difference to the UK and the fact that a trip there means taking a day out of the week makes it less advantageous for me than paying the post and packing charges from the UK or US. Very annoying as I have a rule of supporting local tradesmen wherever possible but Cork from Lixnaw isn't local enough to be competitive.

I'm beginning to feel as if there's 1-11 parallel universe!! Certainly the dates on some of those photos are very suspect. The first 1-11 500srs visit to Berlin was on September 1 1968 according to both contemporary sources and BA's history of the airline and its predecessors. 'VMI first flew on 13/5/68 and was part of the development programme which didn't include visits to Berlin. BEA didn't take the aircraft until 2/4/69, by which time it should have been repainted. Whenever that photo was taken, it wasn't in July 1968. 'VMK was delivered 16/9/68 and Mr Scholefield, as ever, would record the aircraft on one of its early visits. Again, it gives the lie to the listings I compiled around 1969/70 (which came from a source at Hurn!). 'VMM at Heathrow in October 1968 is totally suspect. I can see no reason for a respray into the old colours after the aircraft being painted in Super 1-11 livery when new. Also the location is odd. The Air Canada DC8 is parked with a great deal of open country behind it. There are interested white coats and suits swarming around the aircraft as if it was something new or unusual. As it was the fourth aircraft delivered (25/10/68) it would have been delivered to the BEA hangars on the west side of the perimeter road at Hatton Cross where the scenery is nothing like that depicted. It could just possibly be at another part of Heathrow, to the south of Terminal 3 but by then that terminal had been partly extended and didn't have such open space, had nothing to do with BEA and why would they inspect the aircraft there when they had full facilities at Hatton Cross? 'VMV at Hamburg in July 68 is totally off the wall! The aircraft didn't fly ontil 21/3/69 and was delivered to BEA on 21/4/69. If the date is right it is either 'VMH or 'VMI. 'VMK at Glasgow in 1969 is certainly possible but the annotation that the Super One Eleven markings on the engine cowlings was to do with the IGS is wrong. The titling was part of the original BEA scheme. All very odd and at odds to a great deal of info garnered much nearer the time.

Further info re VMJ. It was involved in the certification process and was in the red square livery prior to delivery and indeed carried out the first Inter German Service for BEA as a demonstration on September 1 1968. Ad hoc flights were then carried out until November 17 when all BEA IGS services became 1-11 operated. This picture http://www.airliners.net/photo/BEA---Briti...amp;sid=6ab7192 which is dated April 20 1969, shows VMJ still in the red square livery - presumably not on an Air France service!! I'll certainly amend my notes and try to research the rest.

Duplicated post

The terms "Speedjack" and "half Jack" seem to have been interchangeable, particularly when the red square scheme was abandoned to the annoyance of many at BEA who thought it far smarter than its replacement. This seems to have been the case. The Super One-Eleven scheme had the tail much darker than the real scheme Could you give me the links please as this is rather odd. Everything I've ever read/seen and my own memories of the time say that my listing is correct but, at this distance memory can play tricks and printed information can be distorted. 'VMJ first flew on 15/7/68 and, given the way the aircraft were painted as they progressed along the line may well have first appeared in the red square livery. It was delivered on 29/8/68. 'VMM first flew on 29/8/68 and wasn't delivered until 25/10/68 and there would have been time to amend the paint instructions as the aircraft passed along the line. I have, however found this shot of 'VMM http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co....20to%201968.htm which shows 'VMM at Weybridge before delivery in September 1968 in the Super One Eleven scheme - presumably just days after its first flight, which gives the lie to both our theories!! Of course it may have been the only aircraft of the autumn 1968 deliveries painted as such to demonstrate the Super One Eleven livery. I'll do some more digging and see what I can find.

Re the colour schemes of BEA BAC 1-11 500srs. G-AVMH and VMI were outshopped in the red square livery for their first flights in the summer of 1968. They were retained by BAC until June and April 1968 respectively and, as the agreement with Air France concerning the internal German Services took effect on April 1 1969, the date of the first visit of a 500srs to Berlin, they did not enter service in the red square livery. 'VMJ to VMP were delivered between August and December 1968 in the new "half Jack" scheme. This was replaced during the Spring of 1969 by the almost anonymous Super 1-11 livery as each aircraft was rotated onto the German services. 'VMH and VMI were so painted on entry into service. 'VMS to VMZ were delivered between January and August 1969, only VMS, delivered in January having the "half Jack" livery. 'VMT and VMU were delivered in March in the Super 1-11 livery, the remainder, including 'VMR which was retained for autoland trials and not delivered until May 1970 were all delivered in the Super 1-11 scheme. The aircraft all took up the "half Jack" scheme when the Air France arrangement ended on November 1 1972, though this took some months to achieve as the 1-11 operation, based at Manchester, was intensive and the tail colour had to be lightened as well as the logos being applied. All aircraft were completed in time for the launch of BA and the "half Jack" scheme, albeit with British Airways titles, lasted until late 1975. In passing, between 1971 and 1984 I flew on all the G-AVM series 1-11s between Manchester and Glasgow, London, Dusseldorf and Berlin and London, Hannover and Berlin as well as a joy ride in 1973 when I had the pleasure of sitting next to Miss Manchester Festival - who was very nervous on the ride to Point Lynas and back to Manchester. I also had a bomb scare on one flight and, on a trip to Dusseldorf and Berlin in 'VMZ we dropped over 1000 feet in turbulence. The aircraft was built like the proverbial brick ****** so no harm came to anyone except for the captain who was on his way back from the loo and hit his head on the overhead panel.

One absolutely gorgeous Connie scheme is The National scheme on their L1049Hs http://www.flyingmule.com/products/CG-AA35101 http://www.aikensairplanes.com/corgi/aa35101.htm http://www.airlinefan.com/airline-photos/2...llation/N7131C/ http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Airl...d%20L1049H.html

The classic airline acronym list from the 1960s when Roger Bacon in Flight magazine got the genre going. Note: This is from the time and may offend some of the PC brigade and some airlines won't be known to the younger generation! SABENA: Such A Bloody Experience Never Again QANTAS: Queer Australians Never Travel Alone Sonny SAHSA: Stay At Home Stay Alive ALITALIA: Always Late In Take Off Always Late in Arrival BOAC: Better On A Camel BEA: Back Every Afternoon BKS: Bulganin Kruschev and Stalin SAS: Sexually Attractive Stewardesses TWA: Tin Winged Aircraft TAROM: Tatty Ancient Russian Obsolete Machinery CSA: Communists Socialists and Atheists LOT: Luggage on Tarmac UTA: Unknown Territories Abroad SAA: Spreading Apartheid Around MEA: Might Even Arrive VASP: Viscounts And Scandias Preferred TABSO: Travel Abroad Banned S*d Off There are a few more if anyone is interested.

No, it's a beast and a great one too!

Just incredible patience and attention to detail.

Back to the 777. From today's BA Source web page: "Boeing 777-236ER G-RAES performed a Cardiff - Cardiff demonstration flight today as BA9116 in order to showcase the aircraft’s new interior to invited guests. This is the first Boeing 777-200 to receive the Boeing 777-300ER style interior. The flight routed north to Belfast then around the coast of Scotland before crossing Newcastle and returning to Cardiff." This aircraft was delivered on 10/6/1997 so is (in calendar terms) at around half airframe life and probably heading towards 2/3rds life with BA. Don't know how many cycles or hours are on the airframe but the investment on the new interior is not insignificant so it can be assumed that BA consider the aircraft has a reasonable lifespan ahead of it. The remainder of the fleet is to be upgraded which actually means most of the fleet will eventually have the upgrade - a welcome change as many of the cabins are looking tatty - but the last 4 aircraft were only delivered in 2009, after a gap of seven and a half years in deliveries, so the last 4 may never have the latest cabin but whatever is current in 10 or 12 years time.

Fair enough - I wouldn't expect you to jeopardise your position. What I would say - as far as the UK CAA goes - is that in over 45 years of serious study of aviation safety, in dealing with the CAA on a professional basis at very many levels to the very top, I have no doubt that the organisation operates to the very highest standards, devoid of partiality, nationalism or any other interest that would colour its decisions. It is a major pillar of EASA, many of EASA's principles being modelled on the CAA, as are many regulatory authorities around the world. I've always maintained that if the CAA says it is OK then, as far as human fallibility allows, it will be OK. The safety record of British airlines over the last 40 years seems to bear this out, as does the safety of UK airspace.

Never a truer word. The bean counters rule.

Dan, one thing I learned in a lifetime's work, and particularly in aviation, is that hints, rumours and (and I'm not accusing you of misleading anyone) half truths only cause confusion. Openness is paramount in aviation. The French and British authorities were satisfied enough to restore the C of A and Air France and BA state they withdrew the aircraft for economic reasons and the fact that the spares inventory was not going to be replenished by the manufacturer. I've seen no evidence in the aviation media, in talking to friends and former colleagues in the industry, or in any official reports to support your statement. If the safety issue was still found to be there, was it the cause of the withdrawal and if so, why did five months elapse between the AF and BA withdrawals - or was it BA found the problem still existed after the AF withdrawal? If you don't want to publish on a public forum perhaps you could PM me with your information.

But the work done by BA/Air France after the accident met the points made in the report, rectified the faults and allowed the aircraft back into service with no restriction to their C of A

Limerick and Cork are my nearest shops, one in each city so the choice is limited though they will order for you. With VAT now 23% here it's almost as cheap to order from the UK when you balance the price inc VAT in Ireland and the fuel and time to visit the shops against the lower UK price and the postage. Stuff coming in from the US or other non -EU countries still seem to get through without any VAT/Customs charges but I only order small amounts - a big parcel may attract attention!

Some nostalgia re model shops and kits. The first model I ever built was an Airfix Hurricane, bought at the model shop on Old St in Ashton under Lyne in 1954 when I was 7. When we moved to Stockport in 1956 there was a DIY store in Heaton Mersey which had Airfix kits across the 1/72nd range from 2/6d for the polybag/card top presented small aircraft through to the boxed 6/- Wellington, the 7/6d Lancaster and the enormously expensive 10/- Sunderland - very much Christmas present territory. I built most of the 2/6d range and many of the later 3/- and 4/6d range plus the bigger kits over the next 10 years. When the Airfix Skyking 1/144 range came out I made all of those plus the 1/72nd Friendship and DC3/C-47. All were purchased from the DIY shop. Tools and materials were pretty much limited to tubes of plastic cement and Humbrol paints but I managed to build an Airfix BAC 1-11 in Braniff pastel blue colours in 1966 when I found Letraset for the titles at a stationers. The DIY shop also offered the odd foreign kit. In around 1960/61 they had a Lufthansa Convair 440 in an odd scale along with a Piaggio P149 in the same scale. The Convair had discs to represent moving props. A 1/96th BOAC Comet appeared at about the same time showing the registration G-BOAC on the tail and with decals, or transfers as we called them then, so brittle as to make them useless. The interior was fully detailed with seats, toilets and galleys but the floor was a few thou too wide, making putting the fuselage halves together a bit of a problem. The newsagent just down the road from the DIY store stocked the odd Frog and Lindbergh Line kit. They provided me with a 1/72 Piper Apache, a 1/96th Aero Commander and a Stinson Trimotor airliner. In Stockport there was a toy shop on St Petersgate, near the market, which had a good range of various makes of aircraft models. In Cheadle a newsagents in the centre had, by 1969, a great range of Revell models. I bough a 1/32nd Skyraider with a complex retractable undercarriage and folding wings which were far too complex for the scale and never worked. Further afield there was a DIY shop on the Huddersfield Rd outside Oldham centre which stocked a range of Japanese kits in the early 1970s. Can't remember the make but they did a superb 1/32nd (or was it 1/48th) F-4E Phantom complete with steps and crew. The model shop on Old St Ashton survived for years, then moved across the road and eventually closed (owner retired?). In Manchester there was the Manchester Model Shop on Deansgate - now Modelzone - and the likes of Lewis's and Debenhams toy departments would always have a range of kits. Now there is Modelzone at the Trafford Centre and Deansgate - both of which have fairly limited aircraft ranges and seem to be lacking in various tools etc. Hobbycraft in Stockport has a restricted range and that seems to be about it. Far better than here in Kerry and I visit the stores each time I'm in the area but, for me, it has to be mainly mail order - which leaves me frustrated due to the restrictions on postage of certain items and the horrendous postal and packing charges.

Silly question 1: Pretty much everything can be recovered if it is economically worthwhile. Parts can be refurbished within their allotted lifespan, other parts can even be "zero lifed", in other words refurbished so they are as new. In extreme circumstances in the last 30 years, aircraft wings, fuselages and tailplanes have been salvaged and reused to give life to different airframes. Silly question 2: Engines are normally totally separate to the airframe. Few aircraft keep the engines they first met on the production line and each engine is treated as a separate entity though leases/mortgages may be for an airframe/engine package, the engine deal would normally include spare engines. Silly question 3: That question leads to a whole can of worms. Even major airlines have had rogue parts and dubious practices exposed, and then there is the whole question of fake parts. Caveat Emptor applies. Silly question 4: It never existed. Given the examples you listed, since WW2 Pan American was a major user of Douglas, Boeing, Lockheed and Airbus products; TWA used Lockheed, Convair, Douglas and Boeing and, in the main politics, in any sense of the word, has almost gone. The Boeing/Airbus/Embraer/Bombardier supply line has all but conquered the airline world. Silly question 5: I suspect no one knows at this juncture. Environmental problems apart, and don't forget no populated countries wanted Concorde laying sonic boom trails over their cities, to make a supersonic airliner viable in operationally profitable terms, it would have carry at least 200-250 people at fares not much greater than standard economy fares across a range of routes without the restrictions on range that were inbuilt into Concorde.

Not always the case. Leases/mortgages can be extended and their are lease/purchase deals as well as airlines buying aircraft at the end of the term. It all depends on the arrangement between the parties, the state of the aircraft, the needs of the airlinet and the economy. A couple of photos of mine re the A319/737-700. A319 at Bristol 2008 B737-700 at Houston Hobby 2011

It's interesting to compare the sales performance of the A319 with the B737-700 as they are in direct competition. The A319 has (as of 11/2011) sold 1642 units since entry into service in 1996. The 737-700 has sold 1432, entering service in 1998. The A319 deliveries before the B737-700 entered service totalled just 65. easyJet is the largest user of the A319 having had a total of 174 on charge since the first delivery - 152 are currently with the fleet. Southwest in the USA is the largest user of the 737-700 with 372 in service, one other airframe has been used. Both airlines have similar average sector lengths: 611 for easyJet, 658 for Southwest. Apart from the fact that Southwest has had an all 737 fleet for the last 40 years (apart from a brief period when a handful of 727-200s were used for transcontinental flights) and they place a deal of emphasis on commonality and patriotism, it would be interesting to know exactly what the difference in economics is from the Southwest point of view. Obviously the cabin crew aspect comes into play - though this doesn't seem to trouble easyJet and, given Southwest has an average turnround of 20 minutes, a wider gangway would obviously help. Given so many US airlines have switched to or added the A320 family to their fleets Southwest must have a reason other than commonality and patriotism.

People in the UK don't know how lucky they are with a choice between LHS, major on line retailers and some high st toy shops selling models. Here in the west of Ireland, my nearest model shop is 80 miles away over bad roads. If I order on line from an Irish retailer, the choice is restricted. That leaves ordering on line from the UK with hefty shipping charges, buying in bulk whenever I'm in the UK or ordering from US stores, having the items shipped to my daughters and picking them up when I'm in Texas.

Decided to build this as a civil version but not yet decided on which aircraft to model. Ideally would like a C-47 with the astrodome still in place so as not to have to files down and fill in (see my previous post http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...opic=234910038). To get to grips with the instructions and the very large number of parts I've opened the box and made a start on the first sub assembly job - the two engines. I've decided that, whatever aircraft I model it will be shown as under maintenance with one cowling removed so as to show the engine detail. Similarly when the fuselage is put together, given the wealth of internal detail, plus the fact I'll probably model a civilian freighter with lining to the fuselage interior as per the many convertible aircraft used in the 1950s and 1960s, all doors will be open. As the sub title says this will be a slow build due to family commitments, travel and some work to be done in the house, plus a 1/48th Tamiya Mosquito which is half built. Updates will be posted as and when there is anything to show. The engine shown below is the one to be exposed. The second engine has been finished to the same level but this one is likely to get a few more additions. Looking at the shots the rust is much more subdued in colour than shown. Probably the flash highlighting the red tones