Hi all,

For a long time I've been meaning to build a pre-war model of the Swordfish as a tribute to my grandfather Commander K C Ogilvie OBE RN. Trouble is - I don't at present know which squadron he was on (let alone any specific a/c). Have found the dates of his pilot training in mid 30's - but don't know a lot more about his flying at this stage. My father told me he got into trouble for flying a Swordfish at low level through Cheddar Gorge pre-war.

What I do have are some original photo's from a scrapbook - don't know their provenance - but possibly taken by my grandfather - can anyone tell me the squadrons pictured?:






I'd love to find the aircraft serial/squadron as I have a Trumpy kit waiting in the to-do pile - and the pilot figure done by Paul Fisher for the Sea Fury is a dead ringer for my grandfather. I was a little stunned when John 'Tigger' Wilkes did his Sea Fury and Pilot - very good likeness!

I believe he had an accident prior to outbreak of war which stopped the flying. Ironically he went on to serve onboard Anti-Aircraft Cruiser HMS Curlew, sunk off Narvik, Norway in 1940. I believe he led a team of commando's back to the ship afterwards - possibly to recover some of the radar kit and to sink her properly.

I'm looking at all sorts of other avenues and will be trying to get a copy of his service records at some point, but any info on pre-war stringbags much appreciated!

Iain

First pic, L2723, looks to be 814 NAS, Ark Royal.

Second pic L2737 810 NAS, HMS Courageous.

Many thanks Jonathan - gives me something to work with!

EDIT - looking at 810 NAS history there looks like there may be a good fit with my currently limited knowledge of his movements immediately pre-War...

Iain

This is from the same pages in the scrap book - may give another clue to the ship (may have been taken around same time?):



Hawker Osprey I believe?

Iain

I think that first picture is a bit of a puzzle. L2723 has no recorded history with 814 squadron and while on Ark Royal, 814 Swordfish carried a blue-red-blue chevron. This aircraft appears to have a blue-red-blue forward sloping band in front of the roundel, which was the style of markings applied to 820 Squadron Swordfish on Ark Royal. The aircraft was eventually assigned to 810 Squadron, HMS Ark Royal, but although 810 Squadron also carried a forward sloping band, it was placed behind the roundel rather than in front of the roundel.

A better possibility is 821 Squadron. L2723 was assigned to 821 Squadron HMS Courageous in 1937/38 and carried the fleet number '679', as pictured. Courageous Swoprdfish carried a forward sloping blue carrier band in front of the roundel. After Courageous, 821 Squadron transferred to Ark Royal in November 1938. On Ark Royal, 821 Squadron Swordfish carried a forward sloping blue-red-blue band.
So my best guess would be 821 Squadron Courageous in late 1938 or Ark Royal early 1939, but I'm confused by the carrier band/fleet number combination
HTH
Ian

Yes - A Hawker Osprey, but this time from 802 Squadron HMS Glorious around 1937/38.

Many thanks Ian - 821 could also fit from what I know...

He was, I believe, mainly UK waters and the Med - Malta featuring heavily and quite possibly where he met my grandmother...



Hmmm - that stirs things up...

I presume cross-decking was common?

Iain

Yes. More likely he purchased official ships photos from Glorious - or had a friend on Glorious and exchanged photos. It is very common to see photos of aircraft from different carriers in the photo albums of sailors. It can lead researchers astray very easily......!

God knows why I thought it was 814, they have sharp angled bands not sloping - you're right its most probably 821 NAS.

Have dug the scrapbook out...

Some images look like they could be official ships photo's - but many most definitely aren't - you can tell by the size/quality!

There are some more Swordfish images - ending in camouflage, a Nimrod (K4627) and several images of the same carrier (album contains lots of other naval images - but these are on a few pages in/around the Swordfish).

From an earlier period there are some great pix of a Sopwith Camel N7122 embarked on HMS Cassandra!

The carrier images look to be the same ship in each image (either Courageous or Glorious) - and in one it looks like Grand Harbour, Valetta - I'll try and get some scans and post...

Iain

Iain,
I'd be very interested in seeing the Swordfish images - especially the camouflaged ones. If they are Swordfish from Courageous in camouflage I think they would be the first I have ever seen. Photos of camouflaged Swordfish on Glorious are only slighly less rare. As for the carrier, does the flight-deck extend completely over the stern, or does it finish before the end of the stern? If the former, it's Glorious. The latter could be either (Glorious before the flight-deck extension or Courageous, which never received one).

Ian

OK - two photos flight deck extends over stern, two don't (one is in Swordfish photo above), one 3/4 bow view that's inconclusive. So photo's not tied to single period, or ship, it would appear.

When was the extension done on Glorious?

There's also a small photo of Ark as well - so suspect I'm not going to be able to draw anything conclusive from any of these images

The camouflaged stringbags - two images - one landing (blurred - hence I doubt official pic) and one facing approx 13 a/c at rear of deck, engines running ready for flight ops...

Will try and scan at some point - maybe of interest...

Iain

Hi mate. The 1/32 vacform Swordfish I built a few years back was L2720 680 of 821 Sdn HMS Ark Royal (1939)

Pez

Glorious' flight-deck was extended in 1935. There are differences in the island and mast arrangements between Glorious and Courageous, which could identify them.

Any markings visible on the camouflage Swordfish photo?

Ian

No markings visible - but looking closely appear to be Mk 11s (rockets under wings) - so later period.

Iain

I wonder how many images lay in "Dad,s or Grandad,s" attic? It is always great to see these treasures.

Swordfish L2723:679 looks definitely 821 Sqn. and appears to have a blue-red-blue fuselage band, which identifies Ark Royal.
However, the white circle is a deck marking that was seen on Courageous (see the 810 Sqn. picture), not on Ark Royal's deck.
Looking into Air Britain's books on FAA squadrons, No. 821 is the only one, among Courageous squadrons, that is recorded to have been briefly embarked again in November 1938 (why?). Maybe by that time squadrons had already been officially reassigned to Ark Royal, hence the three-colour band?

Claudio

Well - now have his service record which outlines all the ships/units he served on and, contrary to family thoughts, he may not have ever flown a Swordfish!

After Torpedo training and his Deck Landing Course he served on 812 Sqn - initially shore based in Malta before going aboard HMS Glorious. However he suddenly ceased flying duties in March '36 (this may tie in with what I've been told about a flying accident).

So - Blackburn Baffin rather than Swordfish - and the market's not exactly flooded with 1:32 kits!

Possible he did get some Swordfish time - but without his flying log book it's impossible to know. Apparently there's a relative that may have a lot of photo's/records of his via his sister - so there's a chance his log book may be there...

Don't suppose there are any decent drawings out there for the Baffin?

Now have full list of ships - didn't know he was on HMS Renown (Aug 1941 - Oct 1943) as Assistant Gunnery Officer and Training Officer - another model for the list!!

Iain

The A.P. is held in Kew, but that's about all; I'd say Yeovilton's your best bet.
Edgar

Cheers Edgar,

Will make contact with the guys at Yeovilton - were very helpful last time I spoke to them (it was one of the archivists that managed to find my Grandfathers' Flying Training course dates last time I was down there...).

Have found a three view on the web - but not enough detail/info.

Am tempted to get the 1:72 resin kit - but don't know if I could still build something that small!

Have found this - 812 Sqn Baffin in Malta - almost wondering...



"Baffin from 812 Squadron over shooting runway. Note Malta bus.


Image from http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Malta%20WWII/Biplanes.htm - some lovely period photo's!

Iain

If you can get to the museum yourself there is a scale model (~1:48 maybe) of a Baffin in one of the display cases. I did model one for a flight simulator a few years back if I can find any of the resources I used I'll drop you a PM.

Anything appreciated!

Will get down to Yeovilton at some point over the summer

Have been hunting - but there doesn't seem to be a lot out there on the Baffin...

Iain