Hi All,
After the pulpit Spad ground to a temporary halt I decided to takes Will's advice and seek some inter war therapy. This was retrieved from the stash. A 1930's Soviet biplane in the Wapiti mould. It saw action in Mongolia against the Japanese, fought with the Republicans in the Spanish civil war and against the Finns during the Winter war. Service continued well into WW2 where it was employed as a night time nuisance raider. The kit seems to measure out very well and will be finished in Republican colours. Acquired it a couple of years ago when they were quite common for the princely sum of £2.99.

Regards,
Steve

Hi Steve

I shall be watching with particular interest as I'll be doing the same kit (albeit the Encore release), for the 'Soviets in Foreign Service' Group Build in March!

Here's what we should be aiming for



Cliff

Another nice looking bi-plane. I´ve never seen this kit before. I watch with interest.

Hi,
That's an excellent example Cliff. Can I ask for people's take on the colours of Soviet aircraft. It's generally accepted that the uppers and fuselage are " forest green " and the under surfaces " light blue." Humbrol and Revell are the most easily attainable to me so I was wondering what colours are regarded as Soviet forest green. Light blue always seems to have a green/turquoise undertone to me. I have also read that grey was used on the undersides. Any views ?

In the meantime, there is a Spanish website that has many photos and data on aircraft of the SCW which I intend exploring again. Will post if anything crops up.

Regards, Steve

Maybe this forum might provide some answers,

http://sovietwarplanes.com/

Interesting aircraft, not one I was aware of before. I try to make my models centre on the Winter War, but have yet to build many soviet aircaft. So I'll be watching the build with great interest!

Will

Thanks Will,
That is a very interesting site. Found the colours no problem except Humbrol seem to have discontinued one of them. Never mind, still got some good matches, I think.

Had a look at the Spanish site and came away with some information regarding the R5's armament in Spain. To the rear there should be one or two flexible mgs and while provision existed for a fixed forward firing mg this was not installed on Republican aircraft. However, a sturmovik version was sent to Spain that was equipped with four or six mgs, inclined downwards and fitted beneath the lower wings. Up to eight 50kgs bombs could be carried. Here's the link to this site but it's in Spanish so a decent dictionary is a must. Cheers, Steve
http://usuarios.multimania.es/mrval/GCE.HTM

Had one of those,

But to me the whole kit was too basic. I think a lot of effort should be done to make it look like a Natasha. I dediced to go for the Azur kit (which is a more modern version of this aircraft). Anyway I always stick to Humbrol 117 to do upper surface of Republican aircraft. Using it right now on a Grumman GG23.

Cheers, Nico

Thanks Nico,
Humbrol 117 is one of the colours I got along with 65 for the under surfaces which I'm sure Will's link said was called Spanish blue. You're right about the kit. It is pretty basic, the ribs are scribed rather than raised, no bombs and a crap mg. Still we'll see how it goes together. It looks pretty substantial and for three quid I'll be happy if it turns out recognisable. I've got a RZ Natasha but mine's Special Hobby. Have compared the two and the R5 doesn't seem too bad. If anything both the RZ's seem to have lower wing issues.

Cheers,
Steve

Hi Steve

Have you got any idea about how to deal with the rear cockpit's internal structure? I've never quite worked out in my own mind what it's supposed to represent .....

There was one of these on a club table at the last Nationals, where the builder had painted everything in the rear cockpit as natural wood. It looked really good, but I'm not sure if it's accurate?

Cheers

Cliff

Hi Cliff,
I was hoping to investigate internal colours via Will's Soviet link which looked promising. However, it is, at present, no more. At the moment there seems to be the choice of dark gray or turquoise green. This is based on the colours others have used on I 15 types and I 16's, I'm afraid I have nothing proven.

As for the rear cockpit the instructions aren't much help. Find it hard to believe that an observer/gunner would have been able to do the job in such an artificially restricted space. So I have cut the hole out of the gunner's section and used the smaller part as a radio front/chart table, using one of the decals with dials provided, and the other bit was turned around and will be fitted into the rear section as a seat. A little box from the spares will be added behind the back of the pilot's seat and I've also shortened the pilot's floor as this protruded into the rear cockpit. My own mistake I think but the instructions weren't very clear. The gun mount needs to turn so I'm thinking of an open ring of wire just inside the cockpit that the kit part will need to be attached to. Haven't got that far yet but it's got to be better than the Roman toilet seat the kit provided.

Cheers,
Steve

PS I'm assuming the Encore is the same as the Pioneer ???

Hi Steve

Given that mine's got a Roman toilet seat too, I think it's safe to assume that these are indeed the same kit!



Looking forward to seeing some photos of your build.

Cliff

This may help - scroll down to the thumbnails of scans from the original manual for the R-5:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_16233.html

For inspiration (he's actually doing masters for a new kit, not building a model, I believe):
http://www.dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=6314

R-5 walkarounds:
http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/makarov_aleksey/r-5/
http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=389

There may also be something useful here - the ARK-5 was a cabin version of the R-5:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_16447.html

Drawings:
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/r5.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw2/r5kr.html

Russian site with R-5 photos, profiles, etc.:
http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20000.htm

You can actually find a ton of potentially useful stuff by entering the Russian text "Поликарпов Р-5" in your search bar and hitting enter...

(Did I mention that the R-5 is a big favourite of mine? )

John

(But wait - there's more! Not that I advocate this kind of thing, mind you, but go here if you want to download the Modelist Konstructor R-5 profile; it's a 66 meg, pdf format file:
http://knigi.tr200.net/v.php?id=350920

It's in Russian, of course, but photos and drawings speak a universal language!)

Hi John,
Thanks for the links. Only had time for a quick glance but I think you've managed to show the way to most of the answers.

Much appreciated,
Steve

Progress so far. The Roman seat affair appears to be a crude interpretation of a gun ring and the associated supports. There are some photos on some of John's links. Colour is grey internally. Pilot and seat from spares, box also. Map table and gunner's seat cut out of the toilet frame. I assumed he would have a seat of some sort and that it would pivot out of the way when he was working. Gun ring is 15 amp fuse wire. I'm going to add the second man so I don't need to be too elaborate.

Cheers,
Steve

Nice work on the rear cockpit Steve - quite an improvement over what the kit has to offer!

Can I add my thanks too for John's links

Cheers

Cliff

Looks good, and the interior details looks both simple but effective. And to top it all, the PM boxing is still available for £3.00... h'mmm...

Will

Progress so far. Fuselage went together OK. Added three tabs as there are no locater guides. Have deepened the side cut outs of the rear cockpit as every profile and the photos on John's excellent links indicate the kit is too shallow. The hood over the engine is separate and very angular in shape. Photos suggest a more rounded profile so have tried to blend the cylinder head bulges into the rear of the fuselage. Forward was rounded off a touch and I used filler to get a more acceptable shape as the kit has the bulges well above the frontal area. Used the walkaround photo links for guidance. Beginning to think the kit is based on early production type. Might be my eyes but it just looks like the earlier photos seem to have a slightly more angular look about the nose area.

Cheers,
Steve

Very impressive! You should sign up with Massimo Tessitori's new VVS forum, and get some images of the completed model off to him so he can post them on his web site:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplanes/index.php

John

A little more progress. More a steady plod than a rapid march. Republican bands almost finished. Decided to paint them over the green as I supposed that this would have been the original sequence. Took several coats and the green is still apparent but I'm thinking this was not uncommon so have decided to leave it as is. Struts were positioned using lower wings as guides and were left overnight to set. Rigging holes drilled and cabane wires installed. Aldis sight is scrap from spares and windscreens the same. Gone against the Spanish web site which stated Republican R 5's only had rear guns. Practically every profile I have seen and some of the photos of Spanish aircraft seen seem to have an aldis sight. A crash landed example on this web site appears to have been stripped of armament but shows the hole on the windscreen where an aldis should be. Gonna assume that the early examples employed at the front had fixed forward mg and that this was probably removed when the type was redeployed as a night bomber or to coastal patrol where attack from fighters was much less of a risk. Drilled out the locating holes in the fuselage for the lower wings. Reinforced joint with CA but it may be better to replace kit guides with stronger, and longer, brass rod. Hope to have top wing on soon and will then be on the downward track.

Cheers,
Steve

Hi,
Top wing on. Had to replace one of the cabanes that got well and truly devoured by the carpet monster. All in all it went together quite well and didn't need to resort to guide supports. Extras added are the fuel pipes and triangular gravity tanks under the top wing. Just shaped plastic card and the pipes are 5 amp fuse wire. Most fiddly part of the job so far and several breaks to let the blood pressure subside were needed. Most of the rest of the kit is ready so hoping to complete over the three or four days.

Regards,
Steve



Better view of the fuel lines. I've only put in single lines but the original is a bit more elaborate. Too much for me. Started some of the rigging as well.

Looks great- the fuel lines really make for a delicate look in this scale.

Any tricks for attaching the windscreens by the way? I always use varnish which doesn't make for much strength, but other glues seem to 'fog'.

Will

It's coming together well Steve - nice effect on the radiator too.

Cliff

Thanks Will and thanks Cliff.

The windscreens are remnants from a Roden Gotha and are very clear. I use Revell Contacta polystrene cement with plastic transparencies. A small dab is applied to the fuselage with a cocktail stick and allowed to go very tacky. I always try to get the base of the windscreen to match the site it is to be located. In the R5 case, that is concave to match the curvature and slightly bevelled to lean backwards. When the glue is tacky the piece should stand on its own but still be able to be tweaked if necessary. Too much glue will still cause fogging but I've found this method to be best. The other method I have used is to cut the transparency from clear acetate. I have got this in the past from the packaging around the collars of brand new shirts. Superglue can be used to secure this material but I have noticed that it begins to brown, like an old film, over the years, although it can still be seen through.

The radiator grills are engraved into the part and the surround is slightly proud of the grill. This allowed me to dip a cocktail stick into black paint with thinner and gently run the tip over the grill. By being careful not to put too much paint on the tip it ran along the engraving to the base of the surround. Nice part from the front but there is a release, or injection mark, right in the centre of the rear which the complete removal of would damage the grill.

Hope this is of use,

Cheers,
Steve

Despite the best of intentions domestic harmony required my attention elsewhere. Subsequently all I managed to do over the weekend was stick the tail unit on and this afternoon got the under carriage in place. Had to replace the central V with plastic rod as the moulded part was too short. Don't think I cut it short from the sprue. Decals on the rudder went on OK but the green shows strongly through the yellow and guess who hasn't got any to touch it up. I know I've said this before but hopefully should be finished pretty soon.

Cheers,
Steve

Hi All,

Finished at last although might add a step under the cockpits if I can find something suitable. Quite a simple kit and as mentioned previously it is pretty basic but it went together OK. That suits me and it looks like what it says on the box. Replaced kit mg with an earlier version from the spares and bombs are more like 10kgs, again from spares as kit does not provide. Markings are paint and 8 from spares while rudder national markings come with kit. Republican classification is RR plus aircraft number but unable to provide at present.

Cheers,
Steve







How I hate these new cameras. They show up things I can't see even with my glasses. Never mind, hope the pictures are alright.

Hi John,
I'd be happy to post some pictures but I've noticed that the link posted by Will is operating again. Been on MT's site and noted a discussion in which a JT was involved about the old site and the new running together. I am assuming the two links are connected? Can you advise on the situation at present and which site is to take precedence?

Cheers,
Steve

Nice work! I suggest you use the old site, now that it's back in operation.

John

Nice result Steve, particularly with the rigging.

Those Republican AF marking really add a bit of colour/interest too.

Cheers

Cliff

spot on build!

I like the aesthetic of the painted on markings- very nice. What's next?

Will

It would seem I've got it wrong.

Regards, Steve

http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplane...hp?showtopic=74

Maybe so, but it's interesting to know nethertheless. Shows how difficult it can sometimes be to conduct Englih-language only research on Russian aircraft!

Will

If correct, that scuppers my plans for the Soviet Foriegn Service GB too!

I'll reserve judgement though 'till I get home tonight and have a bit more of a poke about.

Still a nice looking model though Steve, whatever

Cheers

Cliff

Like Red Green said, "Don't give up. I'm on your side. We're all in this together." I feel a sense of involvement for passing myself off as an R-5 expert but not knowing about the use of the SSS version in the Spanish Civil War. The modifications Konstantin lists don't look too overwhelming, although the wing root fairing might be tricky, especially with the rigging already in place. FWIW, the Modelist Konstructor profile for which I previously gave a link includes at least two pages of drawings for the SSS. If you're not up for downloading this document, PM me and I'll get a copy of the drawings off to you one way or another. If you do attempt the modifications, you'll have a truly unique model!

John

Hi John,
Can't post yet on Soviet warplanes so can't ask Konstantin directly but have been going over what information I have gleaned from one of your links and the Spanish site I posted a link for on page one. Very confusing but not yet convinced that all R5's in Spain were R5SSS types. Not finished research yet but will post details. One thing I have learned though is that the " chassis fairings " were apparently removed from most aircraft in Dec 36. Does that help the project, Cliff.

Thanks for the offer. I'll have another look at the last link but it looks quite frightening and I may have to get back to you.

Cheers, Steve

Welcome to the world of VVS modelbuilding. When you can't read the language, we're all pioneers. Although I once read somewhere, "One definition of a pioneer is a guy with an arrow in his back"...

John

Hi Steve

At a stroke, I'm afraid, all my plans have changed! Hunting around for R5 images this evening I came across this beauty



I think I'm in love again

Looks like I will indeed have to find something else for the Foreign Service GB.....

I will still be following your Spanish R5 saga though, so please do let us know what you discover.

Cheers

Cliff

http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20000.htm

Right here goes. I'm no expert and quite prepared to be proved wrong but this is my take on the Spanish R5 saga. The initial information comes from John's link above. As it's Russian I copied the address and pasted it into the google translator. From the introductory section I garnered that the original R5, that is P5 in Russian, had an M17B engine of 500hp and was an army co-op / light bomber. There was a sturmovik version with additional mgs in pods above the lower wings. The next version had the improved M17F engine and was desiginated CAS. The P5sss sturmovik type was a derivation of this model. The intro goes on to say ..
" Since end of Nov 36 CCC,(Russian for SSS), fought in Spain as part of the Repub AF. Originally used as gunships, near Madrid, but since mid Dec moved to role of light bombers, but later began to be used at night. In March 37 the CAS participated in the defeat of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in the French Highway( I presume this must be near Guadalajara). Last aircraft of this type served in Repub AF til end of war, then with Franco til 1945."

Not quite verbatim but pretty close.

This same link has many excellent b/w photos and some coloured profiles. All of the Spanish profiles are designated as P5sss except one which has a CAS classification. There is a photo which also appears on the Spanish usarios site which was linked to on page one of this thread and the picture quotation is ..
" One of the very rare images of P5sss the 15th Air Group which preserved the chassis fairings. On most aircraft of this type were very quickly removed back in Dec 36."

There is another photo directly above this one which shows a Spanish R5sss which shows the wing mgs mounted within the wings and I believe implies that the synchronised mg remained in place, that is five forward firing weapons.

I've already mentioned the Spanish site and the claim that R5's only possessed rear mounted defensive armament. This looks to be a spurious claim in the light of the above unless they were removed at a later date. This site also states that a sturmovik version was evaluated in Spain and that it was armed with four or six mgs positioned below the wings. A figure of 31 is mentioned and that they were returned to the USSR. This would make a total of 62 R5 but I cannot find any agreement on this number. The source is quoted as lau 2 and I cannot find an identification on the site.
Most commentators quote the number of R5 in Spain as 31. In Arms for Spain by Gerald Howson he has published lists of equipment that arrived in Spain on shipping sent from Russia. The R5's are listed as sss type but it is clear from some of the comments that have been added that there are some discrepancies in the descriptions of other weapons. Based on the above secondary sources all I can surmise is that it appears possible that not all of the 31 R5's delivered to Spain in Nov 36 were sss types. Until a Russian speaking expert either vouches for, or de-bunks, the sources on John's link I'm going to stop now and leave the kit as it is.

Cheers, Steve

Wow, you've done a great job Steve - thanks.

A good call too on your R5.

Cheers

Cliff

Hi Steve,
Thanks to the moderators, I can finally post here!

I only tried to help with your R-5 model…
At the end it’s your model and your choice, you may always say: ”if Republicans ever had had a R-5, it would have looked like this!”
It’s only a model!!!

If we talk about the real plane:
There was no such thing as CAS. Maybe your automatic translator sometimes translates SSS as CAS? Web page you quote lists only:

1. R-5 reconnaissance plane
2. R-5Sh shturmovik with 4 x PV-1 machine guns in wing containers
3. SSS high speed shturmovik with ShKAS machine guns
4. R-5T torpedo carrier

CAS did not exist…

Only 31 planes were shipped to Spain, no returned planes, no mysteries there!!!
Howson is a reliable source – if he says it was SSS, it was SSS.
Another authority is S. Abrosov: in his books (in Russian only) it’s SSS.




Looks like a hypothesis and no evidence to support it.

It is good that you made an effort to learn more about R-5. I hope you found R-5 story interesting. Too bad you didn’t do your homework before you started to build your model.

Happy modeling,

KL

Very interesting stuff. Consider yourself a martyr for the cause then Steve!

Cliff, that civil (?) R5 really is a cool looking machine. The Soviet aircraft industry certainly knew how to make a 'sleek' aircraft in the 30s, a fact that a lot of us western modellers forget when we are presented by a whole host of kits of utilitarian Patriotic War subjects.

Great reference material ! I added it to my data base
Thanks for the urls

Hi KL,
Thought you would end up here. Seems you had better luck with the Brit moderators than I did with those of Soviet warplanes. I can only quote in my defence that I wrote what I saw. I have just revisited the site using google translate and the CAS remains. To add to that already quoted it goes on to say that in Aug 38 P 5 and CAS participated in a brief military campaign at Lake Hassan. My thoughts were that the CAS may be the R Z Natasha but the site goes on to say that as a light bomber the P 5 was gradually replaced by the P Z from 1937 thereby clearly differentiating the two types. However, when I viewed the site in Russian all the colour profiles are quoted as CCC or R 5sss. But when in English mode the profile above the Nationialist P 5CCC is cited as CAS from 1st night's Air Force squadron of Republican Spain, Dec 37. So I am going to accept that the vagaries of the google translator leave me at a distinct disadvantage in this discussion and accept your interpretation of the Russian as correct.

As for the kit you're right, it's only a model. If another one turns up I'll definitely try to turn it into a triple s. But at the moment it looks like a Spanish bomber to me, minus the wing mgs and fairings, which, hypothesis or not, it seems logical to me would have been removed during the types service in Spain.

Thank you for participating in this thread. I'm sure I speak for others in saying that our knowledge of this aircraft has been dramatically increased by yourself and JT.

Regards, Steve

Someone "bumped" the Scalemodels.ru South Front R-5 thread yesterday looking for news on the anticipated new 1/72 kit release, but so far, no replies:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_18068.html


John

Hi there,
I just saw this thread the other night. I got a Fiat CR.32 kit just after Xmas and while trying to research the Spanish Civil War I found a copy of Frank Tinker's book 'Some Still Live' in the library. He often referred to the Rasantes and it took me a while to figure out they were R-5s. I found an eBayer in the UK who was selling these Pioneer 2 kits new for about £3.50 each so got one sent out to me.
I have to say I am really enjoying this build. Its a very simple kit but goes together pretty well with a little bit of care. It's comparatively big too, especially beside a scale I-15. The only mods are a set of exhausts cannabalised from another kit, for which I cut space in the cowling, and a new rear gun. I also had to make a piece to hold the propeller in place.
It's great to see this build and I thoroughly recommend it to anyone else.
Cheers

that's how new 1/72 R-5 should look like - the author of the master model assembled resin masters.
Dishmodels.ru

Ilya

Wow - those are beautiful! Thanks, Ilya - I bookmarked that page immediately! Do you know if South Front still plans to manufacture this kit?

Thank you again!

John

That passenger version looks even more gorgeous on skis than it does on wheels.

Cliff

Hello, John
Sorry, but the only information I have came from Scalemodels.ru thread you mentioned earlier - no exact dates so far...

BR
ILya

Thanks for your reply, Ilya! Obviously I'm very interested in this kit. The translation of the Dishmodels page is here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n....htm%3Fp%3D9482

It's often difficult to get the exact sense of the author's original meaning in these automatic translations; Muchichko speaks favourably of ICM (for whom he mastered several kits in the past), but his final comment suggests that South Front is still the company who will release the product. I'll try to be patient...

BR;
John

ICM received considerable amount of critics for the quality of mouldings and low quality control.
Muchichko says he always pays particular attention to the surface quality of his masters. Valentin considers his cooperation with ICM team as his great success, but states that he is not the right person to address moulding quality claims to.

Back to the Scalemodels thread, Sergey Trufanov, who, I bielive, has connection with South Front, wrote that R-5 (actually, three modifications, R-5, passenger PR-5 an R-5SSS, with some others to follow later) will be high-pressure injected kits. This will allow them keep all these surface details, but it will take some time to set up process, as this will be one of the company's first efforts in high-pressure injection moulding
Best Regards
Ilya