I finally made it last week to the Tank Museum at Bovington and got to see a real Firefly (as well as lots of other inspiring stuff). I bought a glossy booklet there but haven't really read it yet but I noticed there was a photo of a Panther being crewed by British tankers (Guards armoured if I'm not mistaken). As I'm new to armour modelling I've so far only acquired British tanks but the idea of doing a British Panther certainly appeals as an excuse to do a German tank.

Does anyone know if the British used this (or other German tanks) in combat during WW2? (I believe it was quite common for the Germans to use captured tanks) Or was this likely just an evaluation of enemy kit?

Not my field of expertise, but then again what is?

Think it would be for evaluation Darren.
Have seen reports done on captured Tigers assessing performance.

Pictures of British or American crews using captured German equipment are surprisingly rare. The impression I have is that there was a lot of to and fro in the Western Desert, but much less in Italy and Northern Europe. Perhaps it's because they had plenty of their own by then and didn't need to grab everything The Other Lot left them. The timescale of the Panther (it never went to Africa) thus indicates that your photo probably shows a tank being evaluated.

But there's nothing to stop you doing a British-operated Panther as a what-if. It could be captured or it could be something else - invented here instead of in Germany (as if!), or something more nefarious. Or, and here's a radical thought, if you want to build a Panther, build a German one! One other very rare option: build a French one. They used a few after the war. Good luck finding references, though ...

There certainly was a Panther used by the British Army in active service. It was repainted and given the name"Cuckoo." There are a number of sites on the internet which feature photos and it has been a modelling subject. If I can find the links I will post them.

Edit: In fact, I have just put in the search string "captured panther cuckoo" and a whole load of stuff has come up on Google.

Not sure about Panthers, but there was a photo on the Bovington website (Before they changed it for the worse!) of a SdKfz 250 or 251 being used by a Guards regiment

That's the very machine (I'd forgotten it said it was called Cuckoo). Cheers David (I'll do more internet research at home)

Pigsty, I don't know why (perhaps it's because I do naturally tend to go against the prevailing wind) but the idea of doing German tanks doesn't appeal at the moment but the though of doing this tank does.

Walrus, do you have any links to the Tiger reports? Are they on the web?

Dave F, I'll try the Tank Museum website for that

Cheers all!

Don't think it's there any more - there used to be a little section on Oddities and Unusual items in the collection, but I have't been able to find it since the 'improvement'

Sorry darren

It was a book from Barnsley Library and a long time since I borrowed it and don't even remember the title.
Will be going into Barnsley hopefully tomorrow so will pop in and see if I can find it if I can

There was an article featuring Cuckoo in a French mag a few month ago.

Interesting stuff. It appears it was captured in the aftermath of the Arnhem battles and did see active service for a number of months (doesn't appear to be much, if any, in the way of tank v tank fighting) but was eventually abandoned as the fuel pump broke and there were no spares available.

It looks like Dragon's Panther G with Zimmerit is the kit to go for as it seems (from the picture on the box) to be a good match. Just need to source the unit badges etcf, get some figures... Oh No!!! my stash is too big already!!!

Found the same pic posted in higher resolution elsewhere

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orange-tim/3103214233/sizes/l/

Note it is fitted with a 0.5 browning HMG

Found this A.R.S.E post about the same photo with a pick of Cuckoo as well!

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=132597.html

This one is useful as well:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=186789

When I was a lad many many moons ago,

I remember reading an old copy of the then after the battle magazine and it covered a Panther found in a scrappies in London, seems they built the pile of scrap over it after the war and as stuff was processed more was added, it was only many years later when the place was being closed and the final stuff got rid of, they found the panther at the bottom complete with its cut off gun lying beside it!

Thanks lads, given in to temptation and ordered the dragon kit. Thinking crew at rest mid winter with the tank sponged white and 88mm ammo ready to be loaded. Now just got to find the time to start whittling down the stash!

Erm...............88mm on a Panther?

Surely you mean 75mm?

There's a couple of pics of a really nicely built model of Cuckoo on this very site!

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...c=45131&hl=

Keef

Inspirational modelling there. I'd be proud to do something half as good.

(And yep 75mm - new it wasn't right as I typed but not got correct head on this evening)

Me too!

Keef

For real film of Cuckoo go to the advanced search on the British Pathe site British Pathe Home Page. In the film ID box enter 1976.03 and watch. Cuckoo is from about 2 minutes 40 in.

Darren

Ooo, that's my 'Cuckoo'!

A few tips on building this beast:
1. its an early Panther G
2. it has two different stowage bins on the rear plate
3. it has the mounting for the A set of a number 19 radio on the turret roof
4. it has a blue diamond (for HQ Squadron) on the rear of the turret
5. it has rubber tyres (as opposed to steel wheels)
6. It has the quare-ish welded bases to the exhausts with the thin shrouds

Most of the dragon kits have these options included (even if they are not called out in the instructions) as the kits were designed to cover a number of options. The stowage bin will need to be scratched, but really its just a matter of sanding off the 'X' and adding your own 'bars'

As for crew, I used the Spearhead Miniatures British Tank Crew. If you can't find the spearhead miniatures ones, try Resicast as they bought the moulds a little while ago (and have changed them slightly I believe)

Our very own Mr Brickles of ABC modelsport stocks Spearhead

Thanks for the tips, Chris.

Thanks very much Chris, I'll check what options are in the kit. The figures look great too (there seem to be quite a few british tanker figures around but I've not seen these before I think)

With regard to Cuckoo Tiger model designs (I think) do the correct stowage bin in resin. I think I got mine from Lou Stener.

Also there was a Panther G captured in Italy called Deserter. It was used for a while by 145 RAC.

Pete

Found by a late mate of mine Bernie Foggan. He was at the scrapyard with a military collector called 'Fast Eddie'. The Panther was between two furniture type trucks tipped over against each other. Barrel had been sawn off and attempts made to chop some of the armour off. It was one of the same part built batch as the Bovington one and was finished off by the allies for trials. Finished up un Germany I think.

The kit is still languishing in the stash, which is now about 40 kits (not bad since I only restarted after last christmas and I've completed 14 kits excluding the 1/35 S Boat that needs the hull repainting and weathering).

At Telford I picked up the Resicast "Brew Up" figures as the idea of the crew taking a meal break would be a slightly different angle on most tank dios. Cracking looking figures they are too.

DON'T use the Dragon Panther G with Zimmeritt for Cuckoo.

Cuckoo had horizontal zimmeritt ridges like a Tiger, the Dragon kit has the more common verticle ones. Also a lot of the Zimm had come off the front.

You're better off putting the zimm on yourself.

I've never seen a photo of Deserter so I don't know what she looked like.

Stuart Wilson

There are pics about of Deserter, I seem to remember issue #4 of AFV Modeller had a couple in it. Somewhere at home i have some on a cdrom.

Pete

The panther "Cuckoo" was named so because it was the odd bird in the nest.

More precisely because it was assigned to the HQ Sqn and the tanks in the HQ Sqn were named after Birds

Thanks for the heads up on this, Stuart. I doubt I would have spotted this discrepancy. I'll have to have a good look at the Dragon kit and then a good think about whether to live with the wrong zimmerit pattern or get a new kit and brave doing my own zimm.

Darren

I remember the mag, and I also remember an article in Wheels & Tracks which mentioned it and others. It was one of several (maybe 6-8) part finished vehicles that REME arranged to have completed immediately post-war for evaluation in the UK. The Bovington tank museum Panther is one of them, and the scrapyard vehicle was another - it was donated to the Munster tank museum and subsequently restored IIRC. I guess the remainder are now Coke cans...

I remember once seeing a pic of a couple of these Panthers on Salisbury Plain in company with a couple of Centurions; what a diorama that would make!

The zimm is very easy to do Darren. All you need is a zimmerit roller from Lionroar or similar, some fine milliput and some talcum powder

Mix up your milliput then roll it nice and thin on a cold very flat surface, I use an old spare tile from when I tiled the kitchen. Put some talc on the tile, place your milliput on it and coat a rolling pin (or an old beer bottle) in talc then roll the milliput as thin as you possibly can.

Very important, roll it quickly and DO NOT fold talc into it as it will get too dry and crumble.

Once you have it very thin, then brush the surface of the kit so its damp then apply the milliput. The dampness helps it to adhere to the plastic. Trim to fit

Leave this a couple of minutes then get your roller and apply the zimm pattern. I prefer to zimm the parts before I assemble them

This is the method I used for my Cuckoo. Hope it helps

Chris

Folks,
I've found the pics of Deserter that I had on cd, if anyone wants to have a look please pm me your email address and I'll attempt to email them over. I'd rather not post them on here for copyright reasons.

Pete

I remember going on a molotov cocktail range in Germany where we had to throw our lighted bottles into a big black pit and at the bottom of it there was an old Panther and what looked like a couple of T-33`s. Across from that there was a man hole cover which we had to open and get inside whilst an old Patton tank was driven over us and we had to duck down into the man hole when the track touched our heads......very scary......I was worried in case my helmet got snagged on the rim of the hole which wasn`t very wide!!
I cannot remember what te camp was called unfortunately....but I seem to remember that it may have been run by the Belgian Army and that it was at the top of a huge hill, with a forest on the hills in the background which had a massive German Eagle carved out of it during WW2. Although attempts to hide it had been made this huge eagle could easily be seen still and was very eerie. The huge 1930`s barrack block had a swimming pool in the cellar and also had a massive German Eagle on the side of it, the swastika section of it being converted into a round window!! At the bottom of the mile or so driveway going back down the hill was a small grass airstrip......you could just imagine the German Storch`s landing there.......and we did balloon jumps from there...I did 5 in one day!! Sorry I cannot remember its name, it was back in the 1980`s, I wonder if the Panther is still there?
Cheers,
Tony

From what I read I think the camp was Vogelzang. I have been in the dutch army in 1990 on a camp there. I haven't seen the pit, but what you said about the swimmingpool brings back some memories. I was there to do some schooting with a MAG machinegun.
I have found a website about the camp

http://www2.kamp-vogelsang.be/index.php

Cheers Arnold

Hi Folkbox, about the zimmerit, the type with horizontal grooves as mentioned by an earlier poster was the style that the MNH factory produced until sept 44, MAN and Daimler Benz had the more common style, ie the Dragon kit, by the way the 'British made' Panthers were made at MNH factory, along with some Jagdpanthers minus guns they were road tested on the autobahns. The Guards also used a Tiger 1, and this maybe be seen in some of the Cuckoo photo's..... The Tiger book about the British evaluation, is called 'Tiger 1 a British view' by David Fletcher..... Its a really good book and has an itemised breakdown of the machine, and intel reports tech drawings and plenty of photos... The main Tiger in the book is 131 that was captured in Tunisia and now is the famous Bovvy runner.... Quite a few other German Afv's were used by the Brits and US....esp sdkfz 251's. I have a pic in an old osprey PzIV book, of a well photographed (while in German hands) this Pz IV J was from 12th SS Pz div, captured by the Brits and had rough stars applied, I have pics of French post battle AFV dumps that show German kit with Allied stars applied....... The Russians used whole units of Panthers I used to think they were in Brit or US service because of white stars. The Russians even had a translated manual for those Panther Units..... The Russians used any captured vehicle and painted the wheels black for ID purposes.....They even rebuilt PzIII's into a type of assault gun SU 76 i.

The Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry also captured a Tiger 1, turret number 141 i think.
It was kept and used by them for a few days before being shipped off for evaluation.
They painted the 8th Armd Bgde fox on the front upper glacis and the hull rear.
There are some good photos on the missing-lynx site.

Malcolm

Mate of mine - Bernie Foggan found it. He was rooting round with a militaria collector called 'fast Eddie' looking for bits. Two furniture wagons were leaning over it. The barrel had been chopped off and a load of the armour removed. It had the same plate on the glacis as the tank museum example which I think says something to the effect that is was built by REME in Germany