Handley Page Hampden Bomb Bay

[dave41184]

I'm currently working on Airfix's 1/72 Hampden , and let's just say there isn't a lot of detail.I want the bomb bay to be open and I'm thinking of detailing it with some styrene strips - was just wondering if anyone knew or had images of the inside of the doors or the bomb bay floor so I can see if there were any strutts / formers.

Any help greatly appreciated!

[Iain Wyllie]

I, too, would like to see a photo but if you load it with bombs, or even just the carriers, there won't be much to see anyway as it is so narrow the 4 bombs will pretty well fill the area. I have other cutaways but they don't really help with the bomb bay.

There are some quite good photos of the interior in "Hampden Special" by Chaz Bowyer but as detailing the interior would be a waste of time, I only mention it for interest.

Here is cutaway from a May 1939 copy of Aeroplane which would probably be enough to make a reasonable representation.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Iain Wyllie

[Nick Millman]

I have a collection of interior photos (not of the bomb bay though). PM with your email address and I'll send them to you.

[dave41184]

Thank you both for your help I think I may well go with Iain's suggestion and just fill it with the carriers and the bombs. What a treasure trove of info this britmodeller place is!

[daHeld]

There are some pictures of the bomb bay on Flikr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510871752/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872038/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872306/

[FalkeEins]

I have a collection of interior photos (not of the bomb bay though). PM with your email address and I'll send them to you.

thanks ..I'd like to take you up on your kind offer ! PM i/b

[Chuck1945]

There are some pictures of the bomb bay on Flikr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510871752/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872038/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872306/

Interesting photos, I thought the Hampden's bomb bay doors were articulated, each side having two parts with the lower half folding back up inside the outer panel, sort of like a 'v' but tilted to either port or starboard depending which side of the fuselage it was?

[Test Graham]

I believe that too - as described it is intrinsic to the way the torpedo was carried. It might be worth contacting the TB restorer at RAF Cosford for his opinions.

[dave41184]

There are some pictures of the bomb bay on Flikr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510871752/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872038/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/spookythecat/2510872306/

Thank you daHeld , as first posts go this is a pretty amazing one!

[daHeld]

Thanks pal.

Glad to be of service

By the way I think I'll take up Nick Millman's offer as well.

Edited May 25, 2011 by daHeld

[daHeld]

Interesting photos, I thought the Hampden's bomb bay doors were articulated, each side having two parts with the lower half folding back up inside the outer panel, sort of like a 'v' but tilted to either port or starboard depending which side of the fuselage it was?

Well, on the only "surviving" Hampden in the Canadian Museum of Flight, those bay doors don't fold.

On this photo (taken after heavy snows had forced the left main gear leg to collaps thereby severing the wing to fuselage attachment - hence those wooden pallets) you can see the right bomb bay door and its actuator.

This Hampden was licence-built in Canada, so this might be the reason for different bay doors?

And another Picture from the front:

On this contemporary photograph you can see bomb bay doors that look like they are consiting of two parts:

Edited May 25, 2011 by daHeld

[dogsbody]

This is the best image I could find. From the Warpaint book.

[Test Graham]

I strongly suspect that the bombbay doors on the restored example are not original parts, but designed more recently for the restoration by someone who didn't have access to material on the original.

My understanding, reinforced by the photo above, is that when carrying a torpedo the outer doors closed normally and the inner doors rested against the torpedo sides. Once the torpedo dropped they closed normally. The step up at the rear on torpedo bombers was caused by the ventral gunner's position being reduced in depth to allow the Monoplane Air Tail to be fitted: otherwise there wouldn't have been room for this. The MAT allowed the torpedo to be dropped sucessfully at higher speeds than the 80kts or so of a standard design.

[Savenosouls]

I have an unstarted Valom Hampden & Hereford (1/72) - could have a look at them and post pictures if there is any detail on the Valom kit - will need to wait until later - I'm supposed to be designing some railway track at Aberdeen Station at the moment!!!!!!

[Iain Wyllie]

The Hampden doors did not fold back on themselves when open - why would they add that complication when the fuselage is only about 36" wide? The doors did articulate slightly, so that, when open, the inboard or lower sections gave slightly more clearance for the passage of the weapons. You can see this in the rather poor photo below and in the photo of the TB 1 in a previous post. Note that the bomb aimers hatch below the nose forward of the bomb bay is open, as it often was when the aircraft was parked.

The bomb bay in the TB 1 was modified to carry the 18" torpedo and the rear end of its doors projected below the bottom of the fuselage when closed. I don't recall seeing any photos of the Hampden carrying a torpedo with a tail surface, the only photos I have of Hampdens dropping torpedoes show the standard version.

[Test Graham]

Sorry Ian, the MAT was standard on all the faster torpedo bombers because otherwise the torpedo was not stable when dropped. It was absent from wartime-published photographs because it was secret, although the Germans, Italians, Japanese, Russians and Americans all had something equivalent - the US had a box tail. Kits providing this include the Frog Barracuda and the Airfix SM79. The nearest endplate in visible in dogsbody's photograph posted above, and both endplates are visible in the Hampden photo in posting 243 in the 27 Sq Blenheim thread.

The Hampden bombbay modifications were restricted to the heavy duty carrier and appropriate wiring/fitting. It was not deepened and the doors were not altered. The torpedo was thus carried mainly below the bottom line of the fuselage (doors closed). The step was entirely due to the change in the gunner's position. This has been misrepresented in many drawings and descriptions:(I have spent many hours poring over photos trying (and failing!) to find evidence of this. It is however correct in Green's original Bombers of WW2 and fully described in Putnam's Handley Page Aircraft. The revision can be seen in photographs by the smaller windows and change in curve. I have held the appropriate part in my hand at Cosford, and possess drawings of the Test Installation.

[dogsbody]

From the same book.

[Iain Wyllie]

Many thanks for correcting me in respect to the TB 1, Graham, I had looked through what I had on the Hampden and in several references and drawings the "modification" was specifically mentioned. I thought it was odd that the the hinge line or doors were anything other than parallel to the bottom of the bomb bay. Now I know why ...... they were !

Of course I am well aware of the torpedo tails use and have included them in paintings several times, both in British and American form; I just hadn't seen them in photos of Hampdens - maybe they were censored versions.

"Learn something new every day" is a good maxim!

BTW Graham, in reference to Green - I have his books Famous Bombers First and Second Series and in the Hampden chapter on p.42 of the Second Series, he states "The torpedo-bombing variant was designated Hampden T.B.I, differing from the standard Hampden B.I in having a slightly deeper bomb-bay to accommodate an 18-in. torpedo internally, and racks under the wings for two 500-lb. bombs."

This was one of the sources I used, so it seems that Green, like me, had somewhat of an epiphany!

Edited May 26, 2011 by Iain Wyllie

[Test Graham]

Exactly what happened to me, too! Clearly the more extreme angles shown in profiles for the bottom of the bombbay were wrong, but could I make sense of it prior to the Putnam arriving? It's just one example of the errors and myths that still fill our histories, especially when it comes to the digested stuff we get in most modelling articles. Better not start on a list, it would only upset people (and be off-topic). Once you know what to look for, there are Hampden photos where you can see the difference between the small windows ahead of the gunner's position, bomber to TB, but usually they are in shadow or just not visible. Sadly Valom didn't understand this when they made their TB Hampden.

The point about the tails is that they can be seen in some photos, but their function is rarely explained. And everyone knows what a torpedo looks like..... Once it is known that the tails are necessary for a smooth drop at "faster than Swordfish" speeds, then it's their absence in photos that stand out.

[Iain Wyllie]

I have been going through some old magazines and found a few interesting items.

One, in Aeroplane Monthly, describes the torpedo dropping and the tails.

"The torpedoes had a top speed of 40kt. When adapted for aerial use they were fitted with an air tail to stabilise their flight from aircraft to water and on entry this broke off. For a successful launch the torpedo had to enter the water at an angle of approximately 15°. A greater angle would cause it to dive to the bottom, and on a flatter drop it would either porpoise or break up. To achieve the right dropping conditions required very accurate flying. The aircraft had to be straight and level at a height of 80ft and a speed of 120kt. This had to be maintained for 10sec after release to allow wires secured to the torpedo's tail to unwind, thus permitting it to adopt a nose down attitude for entry into the water. Later, this was replaced by a gyro-operated air tail, a much appreciated improvement, as it allowed evasive action to be taken immediately following release."

Another, in Air International, by Bill Green, describes the modifications to TB Mk I standard, although the description of the doors is somewhat confused, while being an improvement on his earlier description previously quoted.

"...... but it proved possible to accommodate a single Mk XII torpedo in the width of the existing bomb-bay, using an adaptor on the 2,000lb bomb shackles; this left the torpedo projecting some 3½" below the bottom line of the bomb-bay with doors closed, so the centre bomb doors were removed and the hinged side panels were left open. Some small structural modifications were made to the rear of the bomb-bay ..."

Unfortunately, neither article included photos which add anything to those already posted in this thread.