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Austin Tilly in RAf service...


Ale85

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I have a magazine article somewhere in MMI

But anyway it stated the RAF never used the Tilly, as it stated "the Tilly Register photo archive does not contain one single photo of the Austin in RAF service.

But the late Bart Vanderveen in his Austin Special stated "During production, Tilly's were also supplied to other Government ministries, like the RAF and the Royal Navy as well as Allied forces"

So if the RAF did the Tilly why are there no photographs of said vehicles? But there are of the Hillman and Standard in RAF service.

But the article in MMI goes on to state:

"In conclusion, we are 99% certain that the RAF did not operate the Morris Tilly. But may have done so in only small numbers either through partial diverted contracts or through a 'local' arrangement between the services."

Edited by daz greenwood
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I have a magazine article somewhere in MMI

But anyway it stated the RAF never used the Tilly, as it stated "the Tilly Register photo archive does not contain one single photo of the Austin in RAF service.

But the late Bart Vanderveen in his Austin Special stated "During production, Tilly's were also supplied to other Government ministries, like the RAF and the Royal Navy as well as Allied forces"

So if the RAF did the Tilly why are there no photographs of said vehicles? But there are of the Hillman and Standard in RAF service.

But the article in MMI goes on to state:

"In conclusion, we are 99% certain that the RAF did not operate the Morris Tilly. But may have done so in only small numbers either through partial diverted contracts or through a 'local' arrangement between the services."

thanks so much..this is a sad news for me!

So, i think it's not a good idea to put an army car near a Spit...

ciao

Ale

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thanks so much..this is a sad news for me!

So, i think it's not a good idea to put an army car near a Spit...

ciao

Ale

In the period between Dunkirk and the B-o-B I wouldn't find it hard to believe light motor transport might have found its way between different services, although the Tilly Register notes are quite definite that no Austins seem to have been supplied 'officially' the matter might not be so clear-cut in a period when vast quantities of equipment had been abandoned on French beaches, not enough vehicles to go around, after all a light utility truck is a light utility truck.

What happened on the ground might not tally with the official records, and if some Tillys in Army service were seconded to RAF use unofficially who is to know what markings they carried.

That said, even if there were a few Austin knocking around RAF stations in the early war years they would most likely have worn standard Army camo anyway, the RAF colour scheme and markings Tamiya supply for the kit is more post-war.

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a brief research on the web and...

ciao

Ale

Unfortunately none of those are wartime Austins, the first one is the restoration Tamiya used for thier RAF colour scheme I think. The second one is too shiny and well kept to be anything other than a post-war restoration, the last shot with the Mossies is from the movie 633 Squadron. The Austin in that is a regular movie star and not intended to be historically accurate.

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I'm using one on a proposed Lancaster diorama - my excuse is - "PROVE that there were never ANY in RAF use". My one is painted an Olive Drab sort of colour, and the back story is it was "appropriated" for the war effort from another service....

Edited by cynicaljohnny
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"PROVE that there were never ANY in RAF use"

Well that is just the problem, its impossible to prove, though equally its impossible to disprove, Vanderveens book mentions serial batches produced for RAF use, but it seems were re-directed for Army and RN use, the Tilly Registers extensive photo-archive contains plenty of images of Standard and Hillman Tillys in RAF use, but none of Austins bearing RAF markings...

Then again, as I said before, would a light truck appropriated for RAF use from a local Army or even Home Guard unit have been repainted with RAF markings? Its quite possible that some pictures showing 'Army' Austins are in fact in RAF use and simply haven't be marked correctly, not impossible to believe.

All that said the point to make is that the colour scheme Tamiya call out for in thier 1/48th kit is totally wrong fr the period being represented even if the Austin did serve with the RAF, the green you have used is far more likely or any of a number of other green, brown and black camo combinations.

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tillyraf.jpg

I have one of these I want to build in an airfield diorama with a with a Spitfire Vb...

It may be completly wrong but I like the look of the 'phantom' RAF livery so that is the scheme I will use.

If anything it will be a conversation starter at shows...

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Then again, as I said before, would a light truck appropriated for RAF use from a local Army or even Home Guard unit have been repainted with RAF markings? Its quite possible that some pictures showing 'Army' Austins are in fact in RAF use and simply haven't be marked correctly, not impossible to believe.

So, it couldn't be totally wrong if i put a "Army" painted Tilly near a Spit??

ciao

Ale

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thanks so much..this is a sad news for me!

So, i think it's not a good idea to put an army car near a Spit...

ciao

Ale

And you must remember that all N European based RAF vehicles in WW2 were painted in Brown or green camoflage colours, RAF blue dissapeared in 1939/40 and did not reappear until 1947!

Selwyn

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I've got a Tamiya Tilly and I also wanted to do it in RAF colours :(

However...

It's entirely possible that an Army Tilly might have visited an RAF station and could be seen parked up beside an aircraft, delivering SOE/resistance operatives and/or equipment for instance.

So although you might not get away with an RAF coloured Tilly you can certainly park an Army one up beside an aircraft.

Edited by neilscrim
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possible that an Army Tilly might have visited an RAF station and could be seen parked up beside an aircraft, delivering SOE/resistance operatives and/or equipment for instance.

Exactly, not to mention Army Co-Operation units, TAC/R units, anything where there might be some cross-over of the services would be a likely candidate, just not in pre or post-war blue unless you are making a model of the restoration in the pictures earlier...

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I had the same idea about that Tilly, which looks lovely in the RAF scheme and really sets off a WWII RAF aircraft nicely when displayed alongside it. However, I also learned that I got it all wrong... Here

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Don't be hard on yourself, Busdriver. It's not really _you_ who got it wrong, but rather Tamiya did. No-one coming to a new modelling subject outside their previous experience can blame themselves for following the clear instructions of such a reputable manufacturer.

Shame, really, because the box scheme in RAF blue does look very nice. I would have done exactly the same thing had I not read about the issue here.

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As stated the RAF did not take Austin 'Tillys' on charge. It is quite likely the the RAF did in fact use a very few at various times, possibly on loan for short periods.

Colours; BS.33 RAF Blue-Grey came into use in October 1937 under AMO A364/37 for all UK based ground vehicles. The colour was officially discontinued in August 1941 under AMO A618/41 and replaced by colours as then in use by the army which were Khaki Green 3 and either Tarmac Green 4 or Light Green 5 as disrupters. RAF Blue-Grey was reinstated in April 1946 under AMO A/302/46 but with gloss black wings, valance chassis and wheels. Wartime colours were excatly those as for the army, the AMOs governing this mirrored the War Office ACIs with a month or so.

The shade of blue usually associated with RAF vehicles is not accurately depicted on restored vehicles or models. The true colour is quite dark, no model paint are as yet available for it. The nearest was the old now extinct Humbrol 112 Tarmac colour, even that needed adjusting. Humbrol 96 is the uniform colour. The colour can be mixed with Humbrol paints as : 5 pts 32 grey +2 pts 14 blue + 2 pts 85 black.

Markings: The beloved roundel was not carried on RAF vehicles until May 1941 earliest, neither was ther bridge sign. Until then RAF vehicles were identified by a paper sticker displayed in the nearside of the windscreen showing the words 'RAF' black on white or vice versa. The whitel etters 'R.A.F.' were not always displayed on the cab doors either. Bridge signs became mandatory when RAF vehicles were deployed overseas. Their use quickly became standard since there was no means of knowing when any vehicle may be deployed overseas.

There are variations about the above. Some RAF vehicles in France during 1939-40 did carry disruptive camouflage similar in style to that of the army. The actual colours are unknown at present but British army paints for vehicles or buildings camouflage or French paint are most likely. In the South of England during the BofB period photographs do show disruptive painting on some vehicles. This is highly unlikely to have been aircraft paints and dopes as these are not compatable with enamel paint on vehicles. Once more army vehicle colours or those for buildings camouflage are most likely together with locally procured commercial paint of suitable colour is quite possible although these tended to be gloss for the civilian market.

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Don't forget that post-war surplus Tillys were two-a-penny, there are probably hundreds of civil and local council schemes that would look eye-catching in a post war diorama, from a council road-repairs truck to a window-cleaners pick-up! Plent of them found their way on to farms as well.

Edited by TheModeller
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Although the Tilly might be incorrect, the RAF used Hillman 10Hp Light Utility vehicles. These were essentially the Minx chassis with a utility body (very similar if not identical to the Tilly) and a two man cab. again, the cab is very similar to a Tilly, even having the spare wheel mounted on the roof.

Okay, it may not be historically accurate, but hey it is your diorama! As for markings, on the continent, all manner of variations can be observed. Olive drab with big RAF roundels, brown with black disruptive "ears" and canvas tilts stained with whatever appears to be at hand.

In NW Europe, why not create an RAF jeep? Olive drab plus mud.

Good luck,

Bob

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  • 2 weeks later...
Although the Tilly might be incorrect, the RAF used Hillman 10Hp Light Utility vehicles. These were essentially the Minx chassis with a utility body (very similar if not identical to the Tilly) and a two man cab. again, the cab is very similar to a Tilly, even having the spare wheel mounted on the roof.

Okay, it may not be historically accurate, but hey it is your diorama! As for markings, on the continent, all manner of variations can be observed. Olive drab with big RAF roundels, brown with black disruptive "ears" and canvas tilts stained with whatever appears to be at hand.

In NW Europe, why not create an RAF jeep? Olive drab plus mud.

Good luck,

Bob

A correction here please. Tilts were not 'stained with whatever appears to be at hand.' They were dyed in colours approximating the vehicle colour and/or painted. The paint was a special bituminous emusion specially developed in 1940 because enamal paint rotted the fabric. These paints were manufactured to match the standard colours in BS.987C Camouflage Colours handbook.

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Mike,

You are quite correct, however my point was that in the field, necessity is the mother of invention. I have seen photographs of vehicles where the tilt appears to have been painted locally - what with I couldn't be sure!

The condition that applied when the vehicle left the factory as opposed to front line use can often be two very different things. I'm specifically referring to the application of camouflage patterns and unit markings. Some RAF vehicles had roundels painted on the tilts and these appear to have been applied in field. I have seen a photo of one RAF jeep where the vehicle appears to have been repsrayed in US olive drab, resulting in the loss of the census numbers and recognition star. Incidentally, these images are recorded on Agfa colour film which makes them all the more unique.

Regards

Bob

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The RAF did not use the Austin, they used Standards and Hillmans. The reason was that it reduced the amount of spares that had to be held in stock. The photograph above (with the Mossies) is from the film '633 Squadron'. They were all designated as 'Light Utility' and had almost identical bodywork behind the cab except for the Standard which had a canvas cab as specified by the RAF. In terms of numbers the Austin was the most numerous, followed by the Hillman, Standard and Morris in that order. They were all based on the manufacturers normal 10hp family saloon (12hp in the case of the Standard). Some had cellulose windows in the tilt perhaps this is the reason for moulding the tilt in 'clear'.

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Although the Tilly might be incorrect, the RAF used Hillman 10Hp Light Utility vehicles. These were essentially the Minx chassis with a utility body (very similar if not identical to the Tilly) and a two man cab. again, the cab is very similar to a Tilly, even having the spare wheel mounted on the roof.

Okay, it may not be historically accurate, but hey it is your diorama! As for markings, on the continent, all manner of variations can be observed. Olive drab with big RAF roundels, brown with black disruptive "ears" and canvas tilts stained with whatever appears to be at hand.

In NW Europe, why not create an RAF jeep? Olive drab plus mud.

Good luck,

Bob

Whilst not as simple as it first appears, it would be possible to make a passable Hilman 10hp from a tilly kit, grille would need changing, delete louvres from sides of bonnet ,replace with side grilles, add the flutes along the bonnet sides and doors,move the headlights to the mudguards, and make a new rear tailgate and surround, while not 100% accurate it would do for most people.

Austin Tilly

Austintilly.jpg

Hillman 10hp LU

Hillman10hpLU.jpg

Hillman10hp.jpg

Edited by Andrew Jones
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