Nightfighter "Night" colour

[timmah]

Hi All

I'm building a Mosquito NFII in the Nightfighter groupbuild and I need to get painting so if I can have some advice please........

I'm sure I read on this forum that RAF "Night" was not just black, I did try a search but couldn't come up with anything. I ordered some WEM Night colour and started to paint it but it does not look the right colour??

The Instructions call for Matt Black finish yet the Tamiya picture on the side of the box is definitely a dark grey, the WEM "Night" colour it turns out I ordered the wrong one and instead of "Night" I got "RAF Blue Grey" (not sure how that happened as they are not even close in the list of paints??).

So do I just order some more paint or is there a mix that I could use?

Many thanks in advance

Tim.

[Dave Fleming]

'Night' was a very dark blue (Black with untramarine added) but 'Special night' was black - I'd need to check which one MOssies used.

[DCRanger]

There's a very nice model of a Defiant here. Scroll down to the "Colors and Markings section for his solution.

[Nick Millman]

Without getting into the question of the Mosquito nightfighter colours, which is complex, 'Night' was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine. Exactly the same combination of pigments used by the Japanese Navy to paint the blue-black Zero cowlings, so Japanese "cowling colour" is a good option.

Ultramarine is a very strong and bright blue but there are two common pigments for it - synthetic Ultramarine which is a deep, very bright cobalt blue and natural Ultramarine which is a lighter, more greyish blue. Unfortunately I don't know which pigment was used in the RAF mix. The easiest Humbrol mix to compromise would be something like one part 25 to four parts 85.

Some sources mention that the Ultramarine was added only to improve the paint and did not alter the colour but all I can say is that anyone who believes that has never mixed ultramarine and black! Some suggest "dark grey" or even "gunmetal" but I would not choose those and personally I think the Defiant model cited above looks wrong. I think the description 'Night' is spot on - and that is another clue - why would the AM need to call plain black paint 'Night'? The colour needs to have a blue element to it.

Nick

[Test Graham]

Special Night was very matt indeed, basically lamp black as used for the inside of cameras at the time - it would come off on the hands and aircraft painted in it looked very tatty very quickly. It was the brainchild of Churchill's "scientific" advisor Lindeman, and based on false suppositions about visibility at night. The early NF Mosquitos were indeed painted in Special Night leading to De havilland's claim that it cost 23mph. Trials at Boscombe Down came up with 8mph, but parallel trials on Halifaxes and other types underlines how penalising this coat was, and it was replaced by either the original Night or Smooth Night (Night Type S?) - accounts vary. On night fighters it was replaced by Medium Sea Grey overall with Dark Green disruptive on the upper surface.

I don't think any of the black Mosquitos were in other than Special Night, but examples may have existed.

The old Humbrol 33 was excellent as Special Matt: recent tins give too smooth a finish.

Night did indeed have a touch of Ultramarine, but to call it a dark blue risks giving the wrong impression. However, for modelling a pure black looks too "strong" so it is best to cut it with a little dark grey (and/or blue) to rcreate a better impression.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Graham Boak

[galgos]

I always use Tamiya's XF-69 NATO Black on my Lancasters. It's matt, it's black/grey but not, to use Graham's apt term "too strong".

Max

Edited June 28, 2010 by galgos

[Edgar]

This was the laid-down formula, in December, 1939, and it was supposed to be sprayed over an already-black finish. It was found that different manufacturers produced slightly different qualities, but most of the problems were caused by indifferent standards of the person wielding the spraygun. By late-1942, Special night was obsolete.

Edgar

[pigsty]

Without getting into the question of the Mosquito nightfighter colours, which is complex, 'Night' was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine. Exactly the same combination of pigments used by the Japanese Navy to paint the blue-black Zero cowlings, so Japanese "cowling colour" is a good option.

That's interesting - WEM do a very good cowling blue-black, but I hadn't thought of it for RAF aircraft ...

[Steven Eisenman]

I always use Tamiya's XF-69 NATO Black on my Lancasters. It's matt, it's black/grey but not, to use Graham's apt term "too strong".

Max

Take care with Tamiya NATO Black as it has a green cast to it. At least that is what I find.

[JosephLalor]

I'm not in a position to look it up, but I recall that a few years ago a Scale Aircraft Modelling article called out Humbrol mixtures of 3 parts 33 to 1 part 25 for Night and 24 parts 34 to 1 part 25 for Sky Blue.

Joseph

[Jazzy Jase]

Interesting stuff. Would the Beaufighter be in "Special Night" too?

[Test Graham]

Yes. All night fighters in the "all black" period would have this. Bombers too. Possibly some of the very early ones would just be in Night, as Special Night was not introduced on Beaufighters until November 22nd 1940, but the Ducimus booklet quotes Special Night for all examples shown. However, it also says that all previous night fighters were in day fighter colours, so that probably rules out Night examples.

Special Night was abandoned on 19th October 1942, but the night fighter scheme had already changed to DG/MSG from the 1st October.

[Nick Millman]

The formula for the Special Night finish (applied over Night to DTD 308 or 314) is most interesting because 'Monolite' was/is a trade name for organic powder pigments produced by Heubach GmbH - a German company! It may be that it was being used here as a generic term - as in "hoover" for vacuum cleaner - or perhaps the pigments were being manufactured in Britain under patent licence. The other constituents mentioned are solvents and binder. The formula gives the impression of a thin pigment to binder/solvent ratio but one of the constituents is also associated with retarding the drying time. Without knowing exactly what the characteristics of "Monolite fast black B.S. powder" was but going by other descriptions the process seems to have been one of adding a matt black "flocking" paint layer to underlying coats of Night with some expectation that the resultant semi-translucent textured finish would absorb light and prevent reflection - as in the flocking of camera interiors mentioned by Graham. It doesn't appear to be simple lamp black (carbon black) though but rather a proprietory black pigment powder of unknown consistency and qualities. The finish was prone to "chalking" - not surprising given the formula.

Geoff Thomas gives a neutral Munsell value for Night of N 0.5 which is effectively a black (or an extremely dark grey) but 642 Night current in BS 381C, although included in the "greys" section, has a value of 8.9 B 2.1/0.2 which is indeed an extremely dark blue - or blue-black.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Nick Millman

[John]

ICI manufactured Monolite pigments.

John

[bertie]

Well, I'm not sure if you can still get Gunze hobby paints in the UK , but I recommend Gunze Tire(Tyre) Black.

It looks blackish but up against Humbrol Matt Black 33 there is a subtle difference.

It gives a good "scale" effect.

[Nick Millman]

ICI manufactured Monolite pigments.

John

Thanks for that clarification. It seems to have been an Aniline Black pigment which has "strong tinting strength, a low scattering power, a very strong light absorption capability, and its fastness properties are quite good. It also produces matt effects (velvety appearance) in paint because of its high binder demand. Aniline black is probably the oldest synthetic organic pigment, it was discovered around 1860. It is mostly used in some speciality coatings where very deep blacks are required." (from SpecialChem's Color Handbook).

Nick

Edited June 29, 2010 by Nick Millman

[John]

Thanks for that clarification. It seems to have been an Aniline Black pigment which has "strong tinting strength, a low scattering power, a very strong light absorption capability, and its fastness properties are quite good. It also produces matt effects (velvety appearance) in paint because of its high binder demand. Aniline black is probably the oldest synthetic organic pigment, it was discovered around 1860. It is mostly used in some speciality coatings where very deep blacks are required." (from SpecialChem's Color Handbook).

Nick

Mauvine is usually quoted as the oldest synthetic organic pigment. It was discovered as a result of a failed attempt to synthesis quinine.

John

[Nick Millman]

Mauvine is usually quoted as the oldest synthetic organic pigment. It was discovered as a result of a failed attempt to synthesis quinine.

John

Yes, 1856, but more usually referred to as a dye rather than a pigment, although the distinction is debated!

Nick

[John]

Yes, 1856, but more usually referred to as a dye rather than a pigment, although the distinction is debated!

Nick

Fair point! Incidentally, and purely for the benefit of colour junkies, there's a short film about the discovery and isolation of Phthalocyanine Blue here:

http://www.colorantshistory.org/PhthaloDiscovery.html

They still manufacture this and the related green pigment at the Grangemouth site although after the fragmenting of ICI and sell-offs of the various parts, it's owned by ChemFine these days. Apart from these, most of the pigment work done on the site now is for colour printer toners.

John

[Fernando]

The Ducimus book on Mosquitos, Northwestern Europe, cites both Night and Special Night as possible finishes, SN (RD2?) used on early machines and Night (DTD 308?) in the later ones (at least, those mentioned as SN have the earlier fuselage roundel). IMHO, when looking at a picture, a totally unscientific but good rule of thumb to say which one is used is to compare the finish to the roundel (which wer painted in Smooth paints). If they have the same reflectance, it is Night; if the roundel stands out as a bright circle, the finish is Special Night. This is especially evident if the upper wing surfaces are displayed in the pic.

Fernando

[John]

Thanks for that clarification. It seems to have been an Aniline Black pigment which has "strong tinting strength, a low scattering power, a very strong light absorption capability, and its fastness properties are quite good. It also produces matt effects (velvety appearance) in paint because of its high binder demand. Aniline black is probably the oldest synthetic organic pigment, it was discovered around 1860. It is mostly used in some speciality coatings where very deep blacks are required." (from SpecialChem's Color Handbook).

Nick

I was reading through Lucas's "The Battle For Britain" last night and he quotes Nobel's Monolite Fast Black as the pigment used.

John

[Nick Millman]

I was reading through Lucas's "The Battle For Britain" last night and he quotes Nobel's Monolite Fast Black as the pigment used.

John

No disagreement, I should have written aniline black as the type of pigment - Monolite Fast Black being the tradename. Nobel Industries Ltd. merged with Brunner, Mond & Co Ltd, British Dyestuffs Corporation Ltd., and United Alkali Co Ltd. to form ICI in December 1926. There was a range of pigment colours using this "Monolite Fast" tradename.

Nick

[Broadway]

On 6/28/2010 at 9:23 AM, DCRanger said:

There's a very nice model of a Defiant here. Scroll down to the "Colors and Markings section for his solution.

 

Holy Batman!

 

Just updating the link has changed for colors and markings on the Defiant.